Hello, and welcome to the Mr. Renaissance discussion forum. You can interact with others here and express your thoughts freely. If you came here in search of older entries prior to February 2006, they are archived here.
| Post New Topic Post A Reply | |
My personal problem with God |
printer friendly version next newest post | next oldest post |
| Author | Messages |
|
Cheryl
Private
Gender: Female
Location: Guangzhou ,Guangdong, China Registered: Mar 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
     
 Posted Friday, March 23, 2007 @ 08:49 PM 
Hi everyone, I’m new yet the title of my first post’s kinda stale. I got here by total accident. Mr. Renaissance’s articles are well-written and well-thought but appeared to be a bit lengthy for me back then. It was not until two days ago when I came upon the newsletter entitled “Leaves of Autumn” that I finally decided to read it from the very beginning till the very end. And this reading experience was all refreshing to me. The idea about how tiny and little stuffs always get the best of us, and how everyone appears different yet are inevitably all the same deep within, really disperse away the moody feeling from which I’ve been suffocating for months. Briefly speaking, I am facing a crossway in my life. Everybody has been there right? And all of a sudden I figure that I can’t persuade myself into any one of choices lying ahead. None of them seems to be any more correct from the rest, nor any incorrect. They are just choices, plain and tiny to others but may mean a lot to myself. I’ve always been a person lack of self-confidence. Ever since I was a kid, my parents told me that it’s an important thing to be “nice”. So in order to be “nice”, I have to follow rules of various kinds just to please others. One of the obivious example is that I seldom, no, never get into severe controversy with other people. Whenever some people disagree with me, I would immediately think that it’s me that’s been rude, or offensive or uncaring. Generally things get worse. As it comes to my faith, guess to those who follow this post this far get the hint, this lack of self-confidence has its huge impact. Firstly, I never have any problem in admitting that I am a sinner and needs Christ’s salvation, for I’ve always regarded myself as being the “one to blame”. Secondly, as a student major in comparative literatures and has long been an avid reader of all kinds of topics, I suffer from this “over-education” more than finding it rewarding. Ideas from all the academic society become voices within my brain, and they just keep fighting against each other endlessly. The more I try to stop them, the fiercer the fight goes. And therefore it ends up in a severely damaged faith in God. Though I still pray and read the Bible, the once cordial and sincere relationship seems way out of reach. As I start to doubt my purity and sincerety, I doubt that God would ever want to help me again. For hypocrisy is the worst sin a person could ever commit and I never stop wondering if I am actually more of a hypocrit simply by praying to God everyday while deep inside letting my wild self roam at large. But anyway, the newsletters I read here in this site prove to be extremely helpful to me now. I love to have Christian friends who are intelligent and creative and open-minded, whom obviously can be found here.  Love to hear your comment on my experience. P.S. I’m from China. |
|
Carl's friend
Private
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 6 |
Posted Friday, March 23, 2007 @ 11:02 PM
I have had and do now have a few “friends” in my life. My friends accept me even though I might not measure up to even my own expectations for who I should be. Jesus is called a “friend of tax collectors and sinners!” in Matthew 11:19. My relationships with my friends here on earth show me another aspect of a relationship that I can have with Jesus. So He is not just God, not just my Saviour, not just my Lord, but He is a friend. He is a friend, He doesn’t just love me with a love that is incomprehensible, He likes me. I am not sure, but that may be even more incomprehensible. |
|
karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Saturday, March 24, 2007 @ 09:17 AM
Cheryl, I have so been there! I have to totally agree with what Carl’s friend said. My relationship with God and with other people did a total flip when I learned to trust Jesus as a friend who accepts me unconditionally, regardless of what I do or don’t do “for him.” Regardless of whether other so-called christians accept me, agree with me, or not. Let me invite you over to my weblog: http://www.xanga.com/breath_of_dawn. Your relationship with God is not suffering because of you but because the expectations others have placed on you about what God expects from you. And yes, there are expectations - but not something you have to struggle for. When you are truly at the place where you know his unconditional love for yourself, you don’t have to try to change anything - Christ in you is the hope of glory, not you trying to be christlike in your own power. |
|
sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Saturday, March 24, 2007 @ 11:03 AM
You aren’t a hypocrite. Hypocrites don’t know they are posturing. Your prayers are an act of faith and faith always contains an element of doubt. If it didn’t contain doubt, it wouldn’t be faith…it would be brain-washing. Your faith in God is not damaged…it is simply maturing. The faith of an adult is different than the faith of a child. We can “inherit” our religion, but not our faith. Don’t seek certainty, seek understanding. If you seek certainty, you’ll become more uncertain because you’ll have to keep denying all the doubts in your mind. If you see understanding, you are more open to the truth. And the truth? Seeking it is a never-ending quest. You glimpse one feature today, another tomorrow, and, at some point, they are blended. Then a new question creeps in and you have to go through the whole process again. Our understanding constantly approaches the truth, but can never reach it. Why? Because the Ultimate Truth is God, which is beyond our powers of comprehension. As Meister Eckhart said, “I pray to God to rid me of God” It sounds like a drag, but it isn’t. It’s exciting and transformative. And your parents are right….it is important to be nice. The world needs more niceness and less certitude. Besides, no one wins an argument; the disputants become more adamant and less willing to admit they may be mistaken. It’s a waste of time. One more thing….confidence isn’t something we can pour into ourselves. Besides, it is seldom a virtue. Psychopaths are often quite confident. However, I must assure you that people do become more confident and self-accepting through time. It’s one of the best things about getting old. |
|
Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Saturday, March 24, 2007 @ 12:48 PM
Hello Cheryl, and welcome to the forum. Each of the responses thus far has been insightful; in particular, I would like to start my reply by saying that Carl’s friend and Karen have highlighted something that has become increasingly true of my own life. Let me see if I can frame my thoughts, as they have been rattling around in my head for several weeks now. At least according to the Orthodox conception of the faith, there appears a distinction between the earthly ministry of Jesus of Nazareth/Galilee and the glorified and risen Christ. Jesus of Nazareth experienced all the limitations of humanity and had to learn his way in the world, as do we all, yet the difference was this: he was without sin. The Father—creator, sustainer, and potential destroyer—who held the keys to life and death was pleased to glorify and honor the Son, bestowing on him not only honor and glory and transcendence but also the confidence of the keys themselves—for lack of a better term, Christ became “the warden of the keys.” No longer only Jesus of Nazareth who walks upon the earth, but now “the Cosmic Christ” (if you will indulge me for a moment), no longer bound by sin, death, and hell—no, not only this, but holding the very keys to these things to do with as he sees fitting. Regarding sin, he can forgive it, regarding death, he can reverse it, and regarding hell, eternal life has as much to do with quality as with quantity and that is something that it is possible for us to live in on a moment-by-moment basis every bit as much now as forever. Now there are several terms that are used to describe Christ. He is called Lord, Messiah, Savior, Giver of Life, Master: there are others besides these. Each designation captures something of his glorified stature. Each of these descriptions also represents a certain relationship he shares with those who place their trust in him: he is the supreme center of one’s life, one’s Lord to whom one pledges allegiance as a vassal to his liege lord. He is the Messiah, the promised one, the first fruit of many brothers chosen to lead his children out of exile and captivity. He is the Giver of Life, the Way, the Truth, and the Life: he is life itself. He is the Master of the universe and all that is in it. There is one name yet still given to him and it is a name that has not always meant to me what it does now. If you were to ask me who Christ was to me, I would say, “Well, he is all of the things we have mentioned. But most of all, he is ‘the Friend who sticketh closer than a brother.’” He is not only Friend in the best and most true sense of the term, but the glory and honor bestowed on him by the Father enables him to “stick closer than a brother,” for earthly friends—brothers in that sense of those who, in a conception like King David to Saul’s son Jonathan, are closer than one’s own wife or husband—necessarily must part at death and even the closest of brothers have relationships plagued by the brokenness of humanity: one brother can never fully save another even though he lay down his very life. Only someone who has conquered death, sin, and hell could be that kind of friend, that kind of brother. Now then, Karen speaks of expectations: Jesus said of himself in Matthew 11, “Come to me, all ye who are weary and heavy laden, for I will give you rest, for my burden is light and my yoke is easy.” In John 14 we find Jesus saying: “If you love me, you will obey what I command.” In John 15, he makes explicit: “This is my command: Love each other.” He also said in Luke 12, “But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.” The kingdom of God is not the same as the kingdoms of earth. Among the thing that most stand out about the kingdom of heaven is that it is unseen: it is hidden and invisible. It is not based on empiricism and the methods of research proposed by the same. Rather, the kingdom of God is about what is yet to come. It is not about what is, but about what ought to be and what will be in due time. In a phrase, the kingdom of God is all about “the ministry of reconciliation”: it is about the binding together, healing, and making whole of humanity’s relationship with God on the one hand and about binding together, healing, and making whole humanity’s relationship to its own fellow brothers, sisters, and indeed even the earth itself and everything in it on the other. The kingdom of heaven is a way of looking at the world through eyes that seek to enact such transformations: looking for ways to bring about healing and reconciliation. As such, it sees not only what is—brokenness, poverty, and suffering—but also what will be. That is sometimes difficult and that is why we think of the Christian way as a hard road to travel. But it is also easy and the results are rich inner rewards often manifesting in outward gain: our very frame of mind itself has changed—is changing—and we are operating out of purer motives and more sincerely: “seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.” There is no law against love, no law against goodness and mercy. Rather, these things are universally recognized and are secretly respected by even the most base: just as one kills by a soft touch in the martial arts, so only love has the power to crush stones. Now then, Sara has some excellent, excellent advice: “Don’t seek certainty, seek understanding.” Remember, the kingdom of heaven is about transformation. It is not about what currently is—what is seen—but about what can and will be—what is currently unseen. You are not yet the person you wish to be, but you are becoming that person: you see clearly what is but you have a hard time seeing what will be. You become that person who will be partly by playing your own role in bringing about the ministry of reconciliation of man and God, man and man, and man and the earth and all the creatures therein: you “work out your own salvation” in this sense. When you don’t wait to find a reason to be kind to another person but are kind just because you are kind, you often find reason to be kind to the other person. That is to say that your kindness makes both you and the other person better: your kindness has the power to heal. When you choose to help someone without first considering whether he or she deserves to be helped or not, you help both that person and yourself as well. As you help others heal, you heal yourself. As you seek Christ in those you meet, you’ll find him in yourself. Sara is correct. You are not a hypocrite, you are a person who is beginning to understand that the ways of God are not the same as those of earth. Your academic studies progress according to their own methods and that is as it ought to be. The kind of information and knowledge that is being sought is being gained by the tools employed. But that is not and never will be how the kingdom of heaven operates, for it is the rule of what is not seen and cannot be measured. It is the rule not of what is, but what will be. It is the rule of transformation, the rule that says, “The scientist sees a bit of flour and water. That is good. I see that too. But I also see golden cakes, their sweet odors wafting from their savory centers, enticing the nose and titillating the palate. I see golden cakes on tables stretched for distance without end. I see people no longer hungry, but happy and feasting together. You see flour and water. I do too. But I see far, far more. You see the surface. I see that too. But I also see beneath, behind, and far beyond as well.” That, then, is how the kingdom of heaven measures things. It starts out with a loaf or two of bread and a handful of fishes and ends the day by feeding the multitudes. Take heart. The kingdom of heaven is a seed. It has already been planted in your heart and while you may experience painful pangs from time to time as it roots its way upward and through the soil, those are merely signs it is growing, and, in due time, will produce its harvest: ten-fold, twenty-fold, a hundred-fold, perhaps even far more. |
|
karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Saturday, March 24, 2007 @ 02:12 PM
Wow, Eric, you really put your thoughts in order well - as usual. And I really appreciated your comments, particularly about Jesus of Nazareth the man and the difference between what he was about then and what he is about now. |
|
detwd0hb
Sergeant First Class
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Jul 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 50 |
Posted Monday, March 26, 2007 @ 08:39 AM
Welcome to Eric’s forum. Let me first say that personal experiences or public confessions are kind of a strange opening for a meaningful discussion. In general, they are neither debatable nor universal. After all, if I said I heard conflicting voices in my head, I might be labeled some kind of lunatic. OK Eric, that was not useful. I’d like to think the kinds of doubt you possess are of a healthy kind. God doesn’t mind us thinking of these things. What if, in the end, these doubts produce a greater faith? It is far better that this happens from time to time rather than being of that unquestioning ever go happily I am (Ned Flanders type). We cannot see God and we will not see God until He returns. However, we are asked to look, but this looking is not the same thing as seeing. This is why our being certain of such a thing is at odds with faith. We are called to an understanding by faith. It is in the looking that we are transformed from our kind of thinking to God’s kind of thinking. Also, it matters not how sincere we are. If we are not saved, our sincerity will not save us. But I think we are talking about sanctification here and not justification. You should realize that you will not get along with every Christian. Even fellow believers have different personalities and each of us has a longer or shorter way to go in our own sanctification. If we realize this, we can make allowances for those not exactly like we are -at least we can possess an understanding and avoid unnecessary schisms. This is also called love. When it comes to Non Christians, as a mature Christian you will undoubtedly conflict and a people pleasing personality could be a problem. Fortunately, it is not ours to judge those outside the Church. Your own family may be another matter. Luke 12:49–53 Not Peace but Division 49”I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.” Ni Hao! Doug |
|
sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Monday, March 26, 2007 @ 11:58 AM
It’s the people who don’t have conflicting voices in their heads that scare me. Sometimes they become terrorists. |
|
detwd0hb
Sergeant First Class
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Jul 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 50 |
Posted Monday, March 26, 2007 @ 01:33 PM
Yi bai sui Sara. In your case I’ll pray those voices never stop. 
|
|
Chuck
Private
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Mar 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 1 |
Posted Tuesday, March 27, 2007 @ 04:03 PM
Not that I know all of the answers since most of the time I don’t even know enough to know that I don’t know, …but I find that when I am faced with choices, I will usually look at “A, do I do this, or B do I do that”, and God is trying to tell me plan “C”… just a thought. God bless you all. I am also new to Eric’s website. 
|
|
Cortney
Private
Gender: Male
Location: Temple, Texas Registered: Jan 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 5 |
Posted Wednesday, March 28, 2007 @ 09:04 PM
Hi Cheryl, I just wanted to say that one of the most powerful influences on my ability to love God sincerely is who I think He is. Dallas Willard invites us in The Divine Conspiracy to imagine or recall the most breathtaking beauty you have ever observed in nature. Remember the feelings of peace and joy that settled in to your soul at the time. Now realize that your experience of that scene may have lasted a few minutes to a few days. God on the other hand takes in that scene every second of every day continuously. And He takes in a billion other ones simultaneously across the planet and across the universe. And the result of His continuous awareness of all of this beauty is that He is by nature a joyful being. It may be hard to really get that, especially for those of us who are of a more melancholy nature and extrapolate our own peronal tendencies on to God. But He is happy and in a good mood. And when Scripture says He looked on creation and saw that it was good, it really means it. I think we tend to think of God as being in this continual state of frustration over the sin in the world. And it surely does grieve Him. But I think it is more true that He looks continuously across the vast expanse of the universe and He laps in the beauty and He dwells in peace and joy. I go on at some length about that point because we never can run with outstretched abandon towards a sour bitter God. But once we genuinely get it in our head that God is in a good mood and happy to see us we can rest in His presence any moment of the day. Not only that we can begin to understand why He would take interest in the things that don’t seem spiritual or important enough for God to care about. He takes interest in how much Eric’s students learn this semester for the simple reason that He cares about Eric. He delights to see Eric develop professionally. He cares about how effective I am at helping my company become more productive not because He cares how many dollars of net profit we report at the end of the year but because He loves to see me grow and fully utilize the abilities He created in me. Enough. May God be real to you. Cortney |
|
detwd0hb
Sergeant First Class
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Jul 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 50 |
Posted Thursday, March 29, 2007 @ 09:11 AM
God will be God, no matter what kind of face you imagine you put on Him. 2 Corinthians 7:15 15His affection abounds all the more toward you, as he remembers the (A)obedience of you all, how you received him with (B)fear and trembling. |
|
karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Friday, March 30, 2007 @ 08:55 AM
You are right that God will be God no matter what face we put on him (in our own mind) but the point was well made that God is in a good mood, and happy to see us. It isn’t who God is or isn’t that makes the difference in our relationship with him, but who we imagine he is, aside from the great reality of Him that either helps or hinders our relationship |
|
detwd0hb
Sergeant First Class
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Jul 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 50 |
Posted Friday, March 30, 2007 @ 11:42 AM
Karen, I too believe he is happy to see us and longs for our companionship. We also must accept that he is the same God who destroyed the earth once with water to save a remnant of his choosing and will again destroy the earth, but not with water this time but with fire. Such a God is truly amazing, terrifying, and awesome. “T’was Grace that taught my heart to fear. And Grace my fears relieved.” I disagree that it is not God who is in control of our relationship with Him. It is who He is that determines our response. Doug |
|
karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Friday, March 30, 2007 @ 12:00 PM
I disagree with the view that we are no more than puppets on God’s string. |
|
sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Friday, March 30, 2007 @ 12:32 PM
This guy says it much better than I could…. “I make bold to suggest that religion need not be “shame-based” or “guilt-based” at all, in spite of what the street corner prophets and television pulpit-pounders may wish us to believe. In fact, this may well be the principle distinction between those who hold Religion as a joyful and creative expression of the human soul versus those whose religion is born, driven, and ultimately defined by constant appeal to human fear and inadequacy. I further suggest that it is a gross misreading and misappropriation of Judeo-Christian tradition itself to leave it captive and unchallenged in the hands of fundamentalist misanthropes who see every human fallibility as evil and sinful, who take the joy out of religion, and who constantly seek to separate the world into obscene definitions of the “saved” versus the “unsaved.” The result is that something basically beautiful and noble in human nature — namely, the religious impulse, the search for meaning, the inclination to give praise and celebration for life — has been somewhat sullied and tainted if not terribly distorted.” Patrick O.Neill I’m not suggesting that we pretend that we aren’t all implicated in evil and sin. If nothing else, history and current events prove that we are. We need to repent, obviously, but it might be better to repent in the Aristotlian sense of “aspire” to change ourselves through love of the good rather than fear of the bad. |
|
sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Friday, March 30, 2007 @ 12:40 PM
I have another quote which I hope will add a little levity to the discussion….. ”But should I feel guilty?” And then I realized why I didn’t want to answer his question. So I said this: “Look, I don’t want to say if you should feel guilty or not, and here’s why. I don’t want guilt to be what motivates you. I don’t want you to feel guilty that you don’t care for the poor, and then go out and start journeying with the poor out of some sense of guilt or duty. That’s not what I want at all. What I want is for you to be so overwhelmed by the wonder of God’s love that it overflows out of you and leads you naturally to those who are the most desperate for that love, to those who are, literally, dying without it. If guilt is what motivates you, then the chances are that what you do won’t be that meaningful, and it probably won’t be something you end up doing for any sustained amount of time. But if love is what motivates you, then I think the world will be transformed and you will be able to remain in hard places because you delight in the company of God’s beloved — the ‘lost sheep’ and the ‘least of these.’” The student still looked sort of unhappy but the lecture and the discussion moved on. After the class had ended, he was the first student to approach me. “I see what you’re trying to do,” he said to me, “but should I feel guilty?” Been there, done that! (as the student of course) I’d like to credit the author of this quote, but at the moment, I misplaced the information. He sounds like the kind of guy who wouldn’t care…. |
|
detwd0hb
Sergeant First Class
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Jul 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 50 |
Posted Friday, March 30, 2007 @ 02:59 PM
If you don’t know you’re sick you don’t need a doctor. But once you have the cure, there is no shame. Jesus took all that shame on himself. Religion is not about God. Religion is about man’s actions toward God. |
|
karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Friday, March 30, 2007 @ 03:26 PM
“Religion is not about God…….” So true, so true. But I would say it’s man’s action towards man many times, and toward women many more times, in the name of God. |
|
Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Friday, March 30, 2007 @ 05:03 PM
I’ll throw in my own anecdotal account, as these ideas are ones I have been turning around on my own for a bit now. You know, I came out of a Christian tradition that emphasized the guilt and sinfulness of humanity. That was not the only message, but it was considered a vital component and occupied a central place in all that was said from the pulpit and to the teaching in the various educational opportunities to the subject matter of small group sessions. It was recognized that this message was not particularly popular, but it was considered to be absolutely essential and the discomfort that persons felt was attributed mainly to the fact it “stepped on toes.” It was assumed that if the message was not presented in this way, the full Gospel was being compromised. I, like everyone else, accepted this fear and my earlier writings clearly show that I had for a long time been under its influence. The fact is, that approach to the faith is central to most evangelicals and is a way in which they define themselves, believing that in so doing they purify the sin in their midst and thus bring glory and honor to God. The church I attended after moving to Springfield was a non-denominational church, that, in this case, was very like a Baptist church following in the tradition of John Calvin. It was not hard-core Calvinism, but a lot of those assumptions were in place and the messages and teaching often addressed our fallenness, the fallenness of the world, the utter grace of God, and of our complete need for a Savior to help us out of the mess. It is hard to say exactly what all happened that led to my growing sense of dissatisfaction. I do not think it was really the church or the people, I think I was just going through a transitional period and feeling a great deal of unrest. What I do know is that in spite of very Bible-based messages and occasion insights that struck me deeply, I left many services feeling unmoved and cold. I had done my duty and that was what it often seemed was duty. Worse still, I wasn’t certain I even believed any more. What I was hearing in college and other places seemed to me so much more true and compelling than what I was hearing here. I couldn’t say for certain that I even believed in God and that troubled me immensely, as I had long defined myself as “saved” and being a believer was a vital part of my life. Then too, what of the mailing list? I write Christian newsletters for goodness sakes: I can’t go through a crisis of faith like this! I’ll have to stop writing if it doesn’t let up: I can’t in good conscious keep typing out things I no longer feel I can believe. To me, the more Catholic sides of the faith had long held a certain mysterious fascination and I decided to visit an Episcopal Church a few blocks away from my house. I thought of them as being rather “liberal” in a way that was looked down upon by the church that I had come from, but I was at a point of utter desperation. My faith was on the rocks and I told myself that if there was no truth to be found, then at least I could find beauty in the liturgy: at least I’d be surrounded by inspiring sights and sounds and at the very least, these might spark my creativity and distract me from the oppressive doubts that were so debilitating to me. There were too many Sundays I stayed home and slept in, and that just wasn’t something I normally did: ever since my conversion, church had always been an important part of my spiritual life. Now it seemed I could hardly get out of bed and giving in to the temptation once just made it easier to give into the temptation the next time. Sad to say, but I often felt better on the weeks I didn’t attend. I had a good friend from college, a fellow philosophy major, who I met through the non-denominational church we both attended. He had been away for a year or so at Moody Bible College in Chicago and while there had fallen in love with one of the Episcopal Churches; he also was feeling a growing dissatisfaction with evangelicalism. I knew that and knew that I would never go if I did not commit to someone. And so I asked him if he would like to go and he said he would; about that time, a Russian friend of ours, highly intelligent, and a new believer who had been attending the same non-denominational church came up and we invited him. As it turns out, he and his girlfriend had been periodically investigating other churches, not because of any dissatisfaction—they always visited in addition to attending their “own” services—but just to see what Christianity looked like in all its various forms. His family was Orthodox, though only nominal in their faith, and he was excited at the prospect. My first Sunday was truly one of the weirdest I ever had. I did not know when to sit, when to stand, I had to fumble the Book of Common Prayer, a hymnal, and a sheet given me at the door, and then when everybody pulled out the kneelers from under the pew, that was like the straw the broke the camel’s back. I felt I was in some crazy dream: this was all just too new and too weird, not at all what I was used to in terms of church. Frankly, I was rather flustered and felt like a fool, distracted by my many blunders that seemed twenty-thousand times more obvious to me than they probably did to everybody else. I simply didn’t know the ritual; I didn’t know the moves and everybody else did. It didn’t help that it was often deathly quiet between standing and sitting and the silence seemed almost oppressive. And then there was the music: some of it was very beautiful, and while I hate to say it, the words I am about to type were the very words that were etched in my mind—this music is totally “f-ked-up” was all I could think (and I almost never curse even in my own head). That phrase bothered me, but it wouldn’t leave and finally I just gave in and said okay: obviously more than my faith is taking a blow. Still though, imagine East Asian music normally furnished with sitars, flutes, and bongos now recreated solely on a massive pipe organ and interspersed with bursts of acappella vocals by a choir that sounds like it stepped out of the Dark Ages. It was entrancing, but surreal. The whole experience seemed like a “magical mystery tour” and I wasn’t too certain I wanted to come back. Not only that, but my philosophy friend hadn’t shown and neither had my Russian friend: I thought I was completely alone until I bumped into his girlfriend as we filed out the door. She had come, he hadn’t: neither of us knew where he was. That was that. I wasn’t sure I was going to go back. I’m not sure why I did. Several Sundays passed, but something drew me. I guess it was just because it was weird and I was curious. Plus I was desperate. When I came back the second time, it didn’t seem quite so weird and, as I just remembered, I believe both of my friends were with me: that must have been why I came back. We were invited to a meal in the parish hall after the service and learned that there was a class that had just started the Sunday before offered in just a few minutes that taught all about the Episcopal Church, its history, what made it unique in the world of Christianity, and whatever else a person might be curious about including the frank and candid discussions about the controversy over human sexuality. I was intrigued and surprisingly amiable: something about everything left me more open than I usually am. Not only does the liturgy have a way of growing on a person, I faithfully attended classes as well. When I learned that the class was ideally to culminate in confirmation (though it was entirely up to us whether we took that step or not), I waffled back and forth, back and forth. Wasn’t I the one who said I would never join a church? Why would I want to join this one? But my attraction outweighed my caution and a few weeks later, the bishop laid his hands on my head and I was confirmed an Episcopalian along with about seventy other persons. I invited a lot of people to come and share in my triumph—for I viewed it as an honor—but not one was able to make it: not even my sponsor who had grown desperately sick the night before. But I was happy and some of the church members and my class members stepped in to support me fully, giving me another of a growing number of glimpses of people who cared for others in a way I hadn’t really seen much of before. The Episcopal Church has become my home in many ways. It is much different than the churches I’ve attended in the past. I was reflecting on its differences, its way of respecting other people of other faiths (to say nothing of those of the same faith with differences of opinions), its long history, and all that it represents. It is so inspiring to see people who were not always polarized and dividing the world into camps. It is not that the believers there did not see themselves as being in possession of something great and wonderful. They clearly did. And they sought to share it, but they never forced it. I always felt honored and accepted. Then too was a novel idea in all my years of church experience that there were actually believers who recognized and understood, as Anglicans long since have with the whole idea of comprehensiveness, that even within sincere believers, there may well exist a range of interpretations and meanings given to Scripture and that there is an essential unity that binds us all together that is not measured by such things. Listening to Father Ken and Father John present their homilies also was different than any sermons I’d heard. Not really in subject matter so much as in approach: the way they said what they said. They seemed to have a real sense of sacred mystery and love. There was no condemnation, there was not the constant mention of falling short and of sinfulness. Rather, there was an understanding that we are all dependent on God. One did not need to talk of such things; one already understood them. And there was a very real sense of pressing closer and closer to Christ, experiencing intimacy with him, carrying out his kingdom here on earth in so many ways simply because that was the natural response of love felt, realized, and thus lived. It was in the Episcopal Church the “ministry of reconciliation” I speak of so often these days really hit home to me: I finally caught sight of a vision of a world transformed, of what could be and not what is. And now for the reason I relate my anecdote. Sitting in the service about two or three weeks ago, I asked myself how this church was different. Of course, it was more formal and more ritualistic. But I also realized it was different because it did not divide the world into an either/or, an us versus them. It recognized simply that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and that Christ gives life its meaning and purpose, a meaning and purpose that many people do not share. It recognized that as we draw closer to Christ, he fills our lives with meaning, joy, peace, purpose even here on earth. It never shouted or yelled; it didn’t thunder about God and his anger; it was soft and flowing, a bit like the sound of a gentle rain on the roof. I realized that the Episcopal Church did not define itself in negatives: it did not define itself by what it was not, it defined itself only in the positive by what it is. Thus, it did not define other people out of existent, but simply concerned itself with Christ and sharing in intimacy with him and taking that joy to others. What I realized most of all is that far from putting me in danger of straying from the Gospel message, it made me hunger for it. I leave the liturgy now—at least on most days, as I am fully human and so is everybody else—feeling compelled. I wouldn’t say that there are often tears in my eyes, but the feeling inside is like a milder version of the same. Sometimes a tear does slide down my cheek unbidden. For a few precious moments, I am drawn up and out of myself and I truly feel like everything is okay. What I mean by okay, is that it is like I am drawn up and out of myself, higher and higher: like I am drawn up and into God, leaving behind the cares and concerns of the world if only for a moment. Each time I am drawn up and above my ordinary cares and concerns and into his sanctifying arms, it leaves a tiny mark on my soul: each time, I am slowly being shaped and molded into a full ambassador of Christ: a diplomat of kingdom of heaven. The bottom line is that I fully resound with what the authors you have selected have to say, Sara. My heart cries out within my chest: yes, yes, yes! Their words are beautiful and true and truth and beauty go together. These men have gotten it. They have understood. And now, finally, I too am understanding. The world is not divided into us and them. There is only us, and Christ longs to commune with every last one of us. Who is my brother? The Samaritan every bit as much as the Jew: all men are my brothers, all women my sisters. The human race is all in this together and what those who know the Master have to offer is not guilt and condemnation, for there is plenty of that already. Nobody needs proof of such things: there is guilt and shame enough to spare. But what there is a great lack and a great hunger for is a respite for the tired and weary soul; there is the opportunity to experience a far greater quality of life here on earth and the freedom that comes from knowing the Master: there is opportunity to even at times experience the possibility and reality of eternal bliss. As Father Ken began a recent message before the Lenten season, there is an old saying that says, “It is far better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.” I am learning more and more not only how true that statement is, but it is becoming more and more my cultivated response. And in an interesting paradox, that cultivation is leading to greater degrees of naturalness. As A. Philip Parhem writes (an Episcopal priest himself): Quote: It is amazing how little control Jesus exerted over others. His power was the power of attraction, not force or manipulation. He held out an invitation, not a weapon. When his followers saw someone doing good works and healing without using Jesus’ name, he told his disciples to “let them be.” If they are doing good, that is to everyone’s benefit, even if they don’t seem to have the right credentials. How different we often are! We try to get people to do it our way or to follow our rules. Forcing others into our mold just does not work. Applauding and accepting others’ good results and appreciating the distinct differences in people is much more productive. |
|
karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Friday, March 30, 2007 @ 07:18 PM
Bravo! |
|
detwd0hb
Sergeant First Class
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Jul 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 50 |
Posted Monday, April 2, 2007 @ 09:01 AM
Eric, you found there is a middle way. That has a good feeling to it and it’s good at controlling schisms. I find we are often forgetful creatures and we need to be reminded of the most elementary truths (It’s either that, or I’m just really thick). You know by now I disagree with you in the understanding of the scope of atonement. But allow me to interject an idea that I think is worthy of discussion. Question: Are we all God’s Children? I’ll extrapolate that from your quote, “all men are my brothers, all women my sisters.” I think what you are saying is “all” means every single one of us, with no exception. I think you are saying brothers in Christ and not brothers in sin. Perhaps you are not saying this at all, and if so I apologize for the leap. We can say we are all God’s creatures, but this is a very different thing than saying we are all God’s children. Begotten is a very different thing than created. Begotten is not a word we use very much today, but it is clear to what it means. My wife and I have three children I did not create these children they are begotten. They are the very essence of my wife and me. Now I have created things as well, but they are not made from the same things I am made of. If I create a clay figure it is my creation, not my child. Likewise we are His creation and not his children. Now we claim to him as father in Christ and as adopted children, but to say every one of us is a Christian I just can’t believe. I say no, we are not all God’s Children. |
|
Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Monday, April 2, 2007 @ 11:26 PM
Thanks for your reply, Doug. Certainly not all persons choose to embrace God and walk in the light. The hallmark of the spiritual life has long been all about the ontological transformation potentially available to all that takes place from a close communion and fellowship with God. Just as there is physical hunger, there is also spiritual hunger; just as there is physical thirst, there is also spiritual thirst. All men hunger and all men thirst, but only those who eat and drink bring nourishment to their bodies. As a disciple of Christ, I am to treat all persons just as I would treat my Lord. Not only might I be entertaining angels unaware, there is a very real sense in which what I do to the least of my brethern, I do to my Lord, for we are all bound together. The context I alluded to was the parable Jesus told in answer to the question: “Who is my neighbor?” The answer included the Samaritan, despised by many Jews because he was not born into the same birthright or possessed of the same spiritual covenant. To complicate the story still further, Jesus presents not just any Jews, but ones who were spiritual leaders in their community. Jesus did not seem to force a lot of the distinctions that we see in parts of our religious communities today. He was accused of being a glutton, a wine-bibber, and a friend of publicans and sinners, dining with the likes of tax collectors and prostitutes. If ever there was a man who was more a child of God, it was Jesus, and yet the model he set for his disciples was that of loving all persons unconditionally. Further, he clearly was not against the message presented by the religious establishment, for he unquestionably held many of the same theological tenets. What he opposed was how the theology of his day often lost sight of the bigger picture: namely the bigger picture of the persons involved. It was not so much a case that he believed they did not speak the truth; rather, he was opposed to the way in which they handled the truth they spoke. As you allude to in a previous post, Jesus did speak of the sick needing a physician and it was of himself he spoke. Yet not all the sick to whom he attended—physically and spiritually—ever knew his name. And rarely did he treat persons in any other way than with utter compassion: even the hard things he sometimes said to people were designed for their benefit, to open their eyes up to things they had previously not seen that hindered the further realization of the kingdom of heaven in their lives. He knew exactly what people needed to hear and he spoke his words out of a love that refused to see them continue in their way: a type of love that stopped short of nothing less than the transformation of the beloved. It is surely not love to wish to see the sick remain in their sickness or those who cannot see to remain in darkness when the possibility exists that their sight may be restored. The difference between Jesus and the religious leaders, however, was that Jesus never spoke out of any sense of glorifying himself, but always had the truly best interests of the other person in mind. Fallible spiritual leaders sometimes make mistakes, but one can generally tell a difference between those who truly care about others and those who seem to have lost sight of their essential and shared humanity. It has been said of the light that it exposes the darkness, and that is certainly true in many instances, particularly when we talk in legal terms about new evidence “coming to light.” However, it is also the property of light to transform the darkness, turning the night into day. It seems that Jesus only used light in the former sense when the darkness resisted the light to the detriment of others; to the degree that he was able, he was all about the latter sense of bringing the daylight to the darkness and setting the captives free. For all of these reasons, that is why I strive more and more to be the living embodiment of what Father Ken suggested of not cursing the darkness, but instead lighting a candle. Jesus did at times expose the darkness as noted in the paragraph above, but he always did so in a way that furthered the light: he was unquestionably about lighting a candle. As Isaiah prophesied, he did not snuff the smoldering wick or break the bruised reed. In Luke 7, we read of a doubting John the Baptist, in a way that is thoroughly human unsettled by his imprisonment, requesting verification that Jesus “was the one to come.” Jesus’ reply is evocative: “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.” Jesus was very aware of sin and its effect on the lives of people: it is a spiritual cancer and an enemy of the light. He did not condone sin, but he did not spend the bulk of his energies on pointing it out either. To the woman caught in adultery, he said to those who would stone her: “May he among you who is without sin cast the first stone.” If they did not recognize the truth of the passage that suggests “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,” they certainly at least recognized that they were not sinless. They also must have realized that in pointing out the sin in another in this purely accusatory way, they were indirectly pointing to their own sin. Jesus, seeing the woman standing alone, asked her what happened to her captors: “Is no one condemning you?” And she replied, “No one, sir.” Jesus replied, “Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more.” In contradistinction to the message many present in the name of Christ, sin is not the central message of the Gospel. Sin is rather the reality that keeps persons in subjugation and as such needs little introduction. The persons who most needed to be reminded of their own sin were not the sinners, as many suppose, but those whose theology clouded their vision of grace. The central message of the gospel is about the ability to be released from that prison and to become a child of the light. So then, Jesus did not ignore sin any more than a doctor ignores smallpox: however, he did not need to remind many people of its reality either, as our analogy would suggest if played out stroke for stroke. Those whom Jesus touched were already weary and heavy laden enough as it were. What he brought them instead was what they needed: he brought them the light. It is not that all men walk in the light anymore than it is that all men have their thirst quenched. It is rather a case that all men alike thirst and those who have found the living water seek to share it from motives often much different than the modern sales method employed by many religious systems. Our water is not for sale: it is a gift, freely given. By the grace of God we are what we are; with God’s help we will give freely that which we have been given. The difference, then, is one of motivation: the difference, then, is not so much what is said, but the way in which is it is said. Often, even, our words get in the way. |
|
detwd0hb
Sergeant First Class
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Jul 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 50 |
Posted Tuesday, April 3, 2007 @ 07:23 AM
By now it seems we’ve hijacked Cheryl’s thread. I apologize to Cheryl if this has taken your thread and turned it into a sleeper. Eric you are correct, the potential availability of Christ to all has been around a long time, at least ever since the heresy of Pelagius. There really is no problem with our kindness to the Samaritan. Christ even goes further than that to say Love your enemies. Those whom we are commanded to love do not only constitute Brothers and Sisters, but rather all friends and foes. I guess my point here is the love we give does not stop with your brother and it doesn’t make an enemy your brother either, although we hope it will. It is not ours to say who will be saved and who will not, that is why we share the gospel to all. The calling goes out to all. For some it will be effectual and in others it will be ineffectual. And this too is not ours to judge, nor is it within our power to produce. We are to love all and at the same time be on guard from those who are against us. Mathew 10:16 Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Matthew 7:6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. |
|
Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Wednesday, December 19, 2007 @ 06:21 PM
Well I think you may be believing an illusion in a way. The title of the thread is off to me. The reason I think this is God would not be to blame. It would be a personal problem as you mentioned. I think you may realize being nice as you call it is actually good for YOU as well as others. Why do we do things? There is a reward or punishment from actions. Once you begin to notice the rewards of being kind you will naturally want to do it. There is this sort of thinking that social standing in society requires self love to gain the reward of looking good, having money , being respected. I’m not sure people are as respected that have monetary or social status in the way of looks etc. It seems to me they are only objects of jealousy and are constantly being challenged from the next up and coming. They also seem to be plagued with the up and coming constantly requesting teaching of how to be like them. This is not much success in my view. I am just learning really and suspect will continue to learn this lesson. Once you start living like this even one or two decisions differently then normal you may reap some benefit. I have really noticed how troubled self servers really are the more I stop serving myself solely. I think for some reason myself included I have always looked at serving others and myself as this stark polar opposite difference. To try to make every choice for others I think is a tall order and , Maybe dangerous but a balance between the two. |
|
cferraro
Master Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: Custer, SD Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 125 |
Posted Friday, December 28, 2007 @ 08:03 AM
“Religion is not about God.” I would assert that it is. But the question of motives comes up, and this is where most people say “Christianity is not a religion; it’s a relationship.” What you do every day is your “religion”. And it is true that God accepts no man’s (or woman’s) person. He accepts all by faith, and yet we have a problem. After we accept his love, mercy, lordship, and grace, then what? This is the point where people become confused because everyone out there is saying “get saved, get saved, get saved!!!” And no one out there is saying “now that you are ‘saved’, this is how you do being ‘saved’.” How we do being saved, or however you want to say having a relationship with the Father through the Son, is our religion. Some people’s religion displays their Father very well, and some don’t. Jesus said to the Pharisees “your father is the devil, and he was a murderer from the beginning.” I hope that my “religion” or everyday walk with God displays my father. Everyone knows Ephesians 2:8–9 which says: “for by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift from God, not of works lest any human should boast.” But how many people know the next verse? Ephesians 2:10 says “for we are created unto good works that we should walk in them.” That’s religion. You never put stock in some one’s religion since man is fallible; however, what does ours look like? I hope, as Eric found out from the lady he gave a ride home to, it looks like the Son of God. |
|
sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Friday, December 28, 2007 @ 08:25 AM
Detwd, I hate Matthew 7:6 because Christians use it all the time when someone disagrees with them. Most of the time it is used arrogantly and it is disrespectful to the “swine” who are usually good and decent people who happen to have a different opinion than the know-it-all Christians. If I don’t respond it is not because I’m pouting; I’m going on vacation for two weeks. You won’t have Sara Mashed Potatoes to kick around any more. (That is a joke that only people who remember Richard Nixon will get) I’ll miss you all, but probably not a lot because I will be basking in the Caribbean sun! |
|
cferraro
Master Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: Custer, SD Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 125 |
Posted Friday, December 28, 2007 @ 12:52 PM
Sara, Let’s see if I can make you like this bible chapter. 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. When you look at the context of this verse, Jesus is teaching on not Judging people. He says, “how are you going to judge people when you can’t even see clearly yourself, so don’t judge.” Continuing on with this same idea (you see, Jesus didn’t just say one thing and then say something else, he always had a train of thought going) Jesus continues by saying “give not that which is holy unto dogs.” For, what is judgement, but an admonishment towards righteous living. If someone is living a life of an alcoholic, don’t you know they know? It is just going piss people off when you stand in judgment against them, and they will destroy what might be good advice (stop hitting the bottle, bro.), and turn and attack you. Instead, we are to LOVE people and not judge people. When people are “casting pearls”…duh. Jesus told us not to do it because it is dumb. The person at fault is the person being judgmental, not the person in need of LOVE and the gospel. It isn’t saying that I’m smarter, so when you don’t agree with me, you are the swine, and I am the pearl caster. It is saying that I am being a self-righteous prig, and specifically, he was attacking the pharisees at the time for doing this. So…do you like this verse better now??? I hope so…please say yes… 
|
|
Greg
Command Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Springfield, Missouri Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 432 |
Posted Monday, December 31, 2007 @ 01:27 PM
Hi Cheryl, Christ loves you and I do too. I would much prefer to have your spirit on a life boat than nearly all others. |
|
cferraro
Master Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: Custer, SD Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 125 |
Posted Wednesday, January 2, 2008 @ 12:50 PM
“My personal Problem with God” is the title of this post, and I got to thinking on this. Is it really a problem with God, or is it a problem with who we think God is. I would suggest that our views of God (meaning all mankind) are skewed entirely. God has givin us some clues as to who he is, but those clues, however valuable they are to us, to not represent God fully, inasmuch as a review on a movie is not the movie, or a description of a picture does not fully represent the picture, nor does an essay I may write on Heart of Darkness represent that novella. God wants us to know him, and since he is “one of a kind” shall we say, his mode of describing himself to our finite minds in a finite time is at best, a mere flash of lightening in our eyes. As Paul put it, “now we see through a piece of dark glass, but then face to face, and we shall know him even as we are known.” |
| Welcome to Monsieur Renaissance : le forum de discussion, Guest! | |
| Login | |
| In order to make full use of the abilities of this forum, you are required to register as a member. Registration is free, and allows you to post replies and customize your experience on the forum, changing its look and functionality. Register now! | |
|
There are currently 0 members and 10 guests on the forum. The most users ever online at one time was 70 on 03-29-2009 08:16 AM | |
Home | About | Newsletter | Forum | Misc. | Contact | Search | Links | Random Page
.:| get up to date: newsletter :. 1&1 .: discussion forum: participate |:.
