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Ephemeral Reflections on Eternal Realities |
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Elder Will
Private First Class
Gender: Male
Location: relocated to Alba Registered: Aug 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 13 |
     
 Posted Friday, August 25, 2006 @ 02:44 PM
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Friday, August 25, 2006 @ 05:29 PM
I thought your response, Elder Will, was fascinating. Esp. in regard to the quantum physics material. Have to admit, I’ve never thought about or heard about the relationship between Biblical longevity and the speed of light. As for prayer, I always address my prayers to a somewhat “elusive diaphanous spirit” and I can assure you, they have not been in vain. I have difficulty praying to Jesus in his “immortal resurrected body” for several reasons that are too personal/complicated to discuss. I think, perhaps, we should pray as we can and not as we can’t. Genuine prayer “is as old as smiling and weeping, as old as love and death.” I’m pretty sure Christ won’t get offended if we choose to visualize our Creator in abstract rather than concrete terms. |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Friday, August 25, 2006 @ 05:47 PM
Well, I must say I found this response more than a bit difficult to follow, and find myself wondering what exactly was the point of it. To believe that God has a body like ours, as well as the name “Elder,” suggests to me that you are a Mormon missionary. Having spent many years in the mormon church and having experienced a variety of religious venues in my lifetime both before and after that, I can say that the mormon church is the only one that believes God has a body of flesh and bones as we do, or that as we are now God once was and as he is we may become. But I digress… RE: We live in such an obvious physical reality and we should not lose sight of this otherwise we shall deceive ourselves into partaking of the type of contorted thinking prevalent in modern churches which reduces God to a enigmatic airy fairy spiritual concept everywhere and no where at the same time. I don’t think there was any insinuation that the physical body is in any way unreal. I do know that the mormon church teaches that all other religions see God this way, but it isn’t true. RE: according to the church he has taken he huff and no longer speaks to man through his prophets and closed the canon and no longer intervenes in the affairs of men except perhaps to issue guidelines and vague promptings of the spirit. This is decidedly untrue in my experience. I don’t see anywhere in this newsletter a reference to a god who is everywhere and nowhere. And I see a decidedly uninformed view of the modern churches, Protestant, Catholic, or nondenominational. For the most part, what we see in the most popular churches of today is a god who is very MUCH an interventionist god, who for the right words or the right amount of money to the right people, will produce miracles, produce a Mercedez, Lexus, or any other car of choice, boats, mansions - you name it. Financial prosperity, and a decided edge over others. At the very least, for accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior God’s intervention is salvation. And the point of the newsletter, if I’m not mistaken, was salvation - what it entails, what it looks like. Re: I found this not much more than an interesting point of view. I don’t think it was meant to be accepted as doctrine. So I doubt there is any issue of challenge or unkindness. You obviously don’t agree - though with what I am uncertain - and you are certainly entitled to disagree, as are the rest of us. RE: The Gnostic at least got it partly right with their inference that God has an address, and that there is traffic betwixt heaven and earth. This again speaks to me of the communion of saints. Yes, there is traffic between heaven and earth. As Jesus said, God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - the God of the living, not the dead. And As Eric pointed out, this communion of saints (and no, saints does not always mean those who are canonized by the Catholic church; even the Catholic church knows that) includes both those we see and encounter here around us as well as those we don’t. Certainly if there is communication between God and man, or man and God, then there is traffic between heaven and earth with or without those who have died and gone on before. And again, you would be hard-pressed in this day and age to find a church that believes that God is silent to the individual, except maybe the mormon church which teaches that the members of the church are bound by what the current “prophet” and local church leaders have to say. Anything an individual may feel God has said to him or her individually holds no weight if it does not conform to mormon doctrine. And it isn’t just the mormon church that teaches that. Many churches believe in God speaking to individuals but those individuals better have a message that correlates with their doctrine, or they’re “listening to the wrong spirit.” I don’t know where the idea of a changed God comes from, but I don’t think God has changed. Nor do I think anything Jesus said suggests otherwise. I didn’t see your point in that, really. As for what happened to Jesus’ body after the resurrection, why should we care? John said, “it does not yet appear what we shall be, but when He does appear we shall be like Him.” So, with so much of doctrine, and matters that people like to debate and argue to flex their intellectual muscles, I say - eh, who cares? What does that matter to my relationship with God? And ultimately it is not our knowledge of doctrine, but our experiential knowledge of God’s love flowing into us and out of us that will matter on the last day - whatever the “last day” looks like. |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Friday, August 25, 2006 @ 05:48 PM
Hi Sara - we must have been typing simultaneously. Well said! |
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Elder Will
Private First Class
Gender: Male
Location: relocated to Alba Registered: Aug 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 13 |
Posted Saturday, August 26, 2006 @ 05:18 PM
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Elder Will
Private First Class
Gender: Male
Location: relocated to Alba Registered: Aug 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 13 |
Posted Saturday, August 26, 2006 @ 06:10 PM
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Saturday, August 26, 2006 @ 06:30 PM
It was a late night for me last night: I was speaking with a fellow believer who is interested in the ministry and for the past three years has been doing a lot of preaching. One of his fears or worries is his level of education. He longs to pursue a degree but time and resources have been against him. As we were speaking, he spoke often of education, of the intellect, and of the importance he felt that it played in terms of relating to others. He was, of course, concerned with the topic and tends to measure his level of worth based on his education and his intellect. I listened to him speak for a long time before quietly interjecting that no man comes to God through his intellect. The place of God is rather the secret chamber of a man’s heart. It is here, within the quiet places of man’s soul, that he communes with God. In my writing this week, I cited MacDonald’s sermon “Love your Neighbour.” In it, he does a very thorough job of showing us that the two most important aspects of our lives here on earth is that we love God and love our neighbor. This is also the idea found in the Trinity as well that I wished to emphasize: there is a mutual self-respect and completion that is taking place. In order for us to be all that we can be as human beings, it involves the complementary balance of all our faculties working in concert with one another. Yet there also appears to be hierarchical order as well, in which the highest levels are the ones ordinarily considered lowest. In the contemplation of a child, we do not see the intellect as being the superior force. In fact, the intellect is little more than a servant of the heart, for it will reflect what goes on deep within a man. The things that make us most human are not going to be found through the surface level of our intellects. They will be found in the depths of our hearts. When we exalt the intellect and make it the standard of our spirituality, one manifestation invariably raises its ugly head: separation, alienation, a distancing of ourselves from our fellow creatures. But this is exactly opposite of the Kingdom of heaven where we find our greatest worth and meaning in cooperating with one another and growing closer together, building one another up rather than tearing one another down. Our intellect can only understand why this is true when it is guided by our heart. Alone, it will never understand the meaning of love and will instead stand off aside proud and exalted, isolated, individual: the very symptom that Father Freeman describes in our newsletter this week as being precisely what it means not to have experienced salvation and grace. The kingdoms we find on earth invariably crown and exalt the few at the expense of the many. But this not the way of the kingdom of heaven in which the child is king and the lion and the lamb lie down together. The kingdoms of the earth divide and conquer, only to themselves fall. The kingdom of heaven unites in common fellowship, love, and unity. Where there is no love and no fellowship, there is only racket: a clanging cymbal or a noisy gong. Every man is for himself and the most ruthless tend to be the momentary victors before being cut down by one even more ruthless than themselves. But this is not the way of the Spirit; this is not of the Kingdom of heaven. In a kingdom in which everyone must cut down or be cut down, no one can have any peace or rest. There is no deliverance of those things that keep us bound and chained. There is only a further imprisoning. The give and take that has taken place today on this forum is not edifying. It uplifts no one. On the contrary it is demeaning and belittling. This is not the way of the kingdom of heaven; this is not the way of Christ. If this kind of response was the only kind that appeared on this forum, then I should simply pull the plug and collapse this portion of the site entirely, for the purpose of this site is to uplift others and to show forth love, compassion, understanding, humility: all the things that this post does not. |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Saturday, August 26, 2006 @ 06:43 PM
You do make some very good points and your entire response, Eric, shows a strong sense of balance. As usual. I appreciated your very well-thought and well-stated remarks. |
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Elder Will
Private First Class
Gender: Male
Location: relocated to Alba Registered: Aug 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 13 |
Posted Saturday, August 26, 2006 @ 07:28 PM
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detwd0hb
Sergeant First Class
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Jul 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 50 |
Posted Tuesday, August 29, 2006 @ 02:06 PM
 I really think I should not respond to this as it is scattering of previous #’s I have not read. I will only say that after Christ’s life, death, and BODILY resurrection He ascended to heaven and left us with the Holy Spirit. This is very significant. He does not intervene in the way he did (old testament), but he has left us the Holy Spirit for comfort, understanding and rest. There is a change but it is not God, it is Grace given us through Christ.What I find almost comical is Fr. Stephen Freeman skipping around Luther and Calvin, casually dismissing them and then points us directly to the point of the Reformation, “go back to the Bible.” But of course who could blame a Catholic for wanting to conveniently forget the Catholic Church in that era. LOL. What is even more diabolic is to imagine that the Holy Spirit has done nothing in the past 2,000 years which Evangelicals (non creedal and or non doctrine) seem to believe. Remember doctrine is not infallible, but seeks to exegesis. This is Greek for “to lead out” as in a practical explanation “to draw the meaning out of.” I fear Evangelicals read their own interpretation into a given text, or eisegesis (Greek). Now to Eric’s point, where can we agree? I supposed a list might be a good start, but I was shot down. Apparently this is an impasse even suggesting one could make a list, a common ground. I really love you guys! |
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Saturday, September 2, 2006 @ 00:07 AM
I really love you guys! Thanks, Doug.  I enjoyed reading your comments.And my apologies to all: I’ve started into graduate school now with ten credit hours of my own plus another six I’m teaching in College Comp. Between paper grading, paper writing, and endless reading, the time in my world resembles Einstein’s theory of the curvature of time and space: that is to say, time is bending back in on itself with yours truly caught in the middle.  It’s a bit like chronos with a vengeance or kairos with teeth and needless to say, my time spent even on this forum will necessarily take the beating. But I hope that does not discourage everybody else from contributing.
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letabee
Private First Class
Gender: Female
Location: MN Registered: Aug 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 17 |
Posted Thursday, September 7, 2006 @ 11:00 AM 
Sorry, if I am intruding here, but I AM new to this and felt a need to reply to “ELDER” ’ s comment about the trinitarian doctrine; yes, it is not mentioned in those words in the Bible, but it is spelled out at the baptism of Jesus: the WORD who had been with God and was God, incarnate as Jesus, came up out of the water, and the Holy Spirit lit on Him and the voice of the Father was heard from heaven: if this is not a trinity, then maybe I can’t count. Of course there are other authorities on Christianity than the Bible: those who chose which books should be part of the canon, also taught the doctrine of the trinity, having received their teachings from those who either knew Jesus or knew someone who knew Jesus… :+) and observed [1[ Him talking to His father and [2] His use of the Holy Spirit in healings, etc. Someone please tell me ( I am an old dog trying to learn new tricks) how to ‘call’ up older newsletters of Eric’s; I would like a list of all of them and probably copies of most of them; I am particularly interested in the one on afterlife: do selves live on — is that it? Thanks for y your time and consideration………………..LB |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Thursday, September 7, 2006 @ 11:08 AM
letabee, you can click on the site name above: Mr Renaissance Then go to the “Le Penseur Reflechit” link on the home page it directs you to Then under the dated list of newsletters, you have a link for archives of earlier newsletters. Above, on this page, you can click older entries where there’s a link that says, “If you came here in search of older entries they are here |
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Sunday, September 10, 2006 @ 06:51 PM
Leta, for an even quicker reference, newsletter archives are located here and the issue you are interested in reading is located here. |
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letabee
Private First Class
Gender: Female
Location: MN Registered: Aug 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 17 |
Posted Tuesday, September 12, 2006 @ 10:35 AM
PRAISE THE LORD! And I do not say that in fun! For anyone who cares at all, I am not only uneducated in computers and all that goes with them, I am limited by only having access to this forum at the public library, where the longest time I am allowed on any day and/or any computer, is 2 hours, and I do not get into it every day. Yesterday I was about 1 1/2 hour trying to access “you” and I believe there must have been an overload; I kept getting to the “log-in” and the spot where I am told to click here if I do not want to wait longer, and when I clicked there, the blue band at the bottom of the screen would INCH forward and then I lost “you” altogether. So I went home very frustrated, but today , I repeat, Praise the Lord; I not only got into the forum, thanks to Eric I found and printed out the list of newsletters and even the one I wanted to read. Eric, I believe I am not breaking your copyright rules, because I need to digest as I read, and I cannot do that within the 2 hours I have here. I promise I will never gain anything from printing these out other than edification for myself and perhaps a friend or relative who reads them with me. One comment on salvation, on which I believe no one has touched yet: salvation “comes” in 3 parts: one has been saved , by Christ’s atoning death; one is being saved by his walk with Christ and in the church, and at the “END” one will —we hope— be saved. I found it interesting that we are guessing at each other’s church background; just because Fr. Stephen is a “father” does not mean he is Roman Catholic! I appreciate very much these newsetters, this forum and being allowed to participate. [Eric, I returned KANT today, giving up …….if he had just used words I didn’t have to look up in my dictionary :o( and gave an example or two of the points he was making, I would have had an easier time.] Gotta go, LB |
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detwd0hb
Sergeant First Class
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Jul 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 50 |
Posted Tuesday, September 12, 2006 @ 12:59 PM
Letabee, You believe in a salvation 3 times. Do you believe if you have been chosen by God you can fall from Grace? I believe we are saved (justified) through Christ’s atoning death (1x) -by the way, this is past tense it happened 2,000 years ago and it does not need to be repeated in the abominable transubstantiation, as regenerate souls we are sanctified by walking with the spirit, through his bodily resurrection we have hope in the life here after. Doug |
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Tuesday, September 12, 2006 @ 01:02 PM
Everything that I have personally written contains an open copyright allowing for free and unreserved use as long as no overt profit is derived. In other words, what I write is in the public domain except as a means of someone deriving financial benefit in which case I request notification and reserve the right to deny the request. The home page of the website, accessible by clicking on the logo at the top of every page of the site, clearly spells out the terms of this agreement. Yes, concerning Kant, you can see why I recommended the SparkNotes version first. But honestly, I really did not think you would be as interested as you thought you would be even from the very beginning. In any case, I have class in technically 0 minutes, so I am going to sign off. |
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Tuesday, September 12, 2006 @ 07:24 PM
That was a good call on your part, LetaBee. I am normally very careful to identify the particular religious persuasion a given person is coming from when I write (at least if I know what it is), but I was careless this time. In my defense, I would suggest that there was a lot of overt discussion of Roman Catholicism on the forum from which the material was derived. However, Father Freeman says several things that would seem to locate him much more on the Orthodox side rather than the Roman Catholic. For example, he writes that he has just returned from a “marathon Orthodox Holy Week and Pascha” and he concludes his post by writing Christos Voskrese. That is Greek, correct? not Latin. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe LetaBee has the Orthodox conception of theosis in mind when she writes of the three aspects of salvation, namely purgation, illumination, and union. Incidentally, this “three-fold way” also informs Evelyn Underhill’s 1912 work The Spiral Way. As such, it is not so much salvation three times, but rather suggestive of differing levels of closeness to God until ultimate perfection. Purgation is the point at which one is purged (washed, made clean), illumination is growing and walking in the light and the truth, and union is the final act of union with God. |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Tuesday, September 12, 2006 @ 07:29 PM
I agree with you Eric, on the “three-fold way.” In fact, as I read what Letabee had written, this is exactly what came to mind, that salvation has its ongoing aspect to it. |
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Tuesday, September 12, 2006 @ 07:32 PM
At first, my thought was to protest and suggest that I prefer a more linear or progressive model, but in a very real sense that is what is implied here in this schema. The ongoing aspect in this lifetime is the illumination, the purgation the initial point of redemption, and union the ultimate hope of the Christian believer. |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Tuesday, September 12, 2006 @ 07:35 PM
Indeed. |
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detwd0hb
Sergeant First Class
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Jul 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 50 |
Posted Thursday, September 14, 2006 @ 06:40 AM
Wow, is it possible we have consensus! Quote: Purgation is the point at which one is purged (washed, made clean), illumination is growing and walking in the light and the truth, and union is the final act of union with God. Just as the theif on the cross was justified by his faith and entered into glory, sanctification may or may not be applicable to everyone. (Read here Sancitification does not justify-only faith) Justification ———— Purgation Sanctification———illumination Glorification ————-Union |
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Thursday, September 14, 2006 @ 08:22 AM
Okay, now that we have it all figured out…let’s ACT in ways that will ultimately demonstrate the reality of these concepts. |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Thursday, September 14, 2006 @ 09:12 AM
Which is, in large part, the goal of this three-fold way and the knowledge of it. |
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letabee
Private First Class
Gender: Female
Location: MN Registered: Aug 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 17 |
Posted Thursday, September 14, 2006 @ 09:31 AM
WOW! I could not have said it better, at all! thanks all of you for clarifying what I was trying to say; What I believe is of no value, Doug; what is important is the truth, the actual reality; and we learn that from the Bible and other authorities; I am probably giving away my church affliliation, and that is alright with me :o) The terms and remarks to which you referred, Eric, do “smack ” of Orthodoxy. I love this newletter and all of the interaction that happens here; wonder where Elder Will is? p.s.How do you use the emoticons????? LB |
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Elder Will
Private First Class
Gender: Male
Location: relocated to Alba Registered: Aug 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 13 |
Posted Thursday, September 14, 2006 @ 03:17 PM
In Scotland in Alba! --------------------
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Thursday, September 14, 2006 @ 09:20 PM
Now I must say, Elder Will, your last post made me laugh out loud. LetaBee, you’ll need to be in “Preview” mode if you’re not to use the emoticons; if you are, then you just position your cursor where you want the emoticon to appear in your message and then use your mouse to click the appropriate one from the fifteen on the left. Once you submit your post, it will automatically replace the characters it has inserted with the emoticon picture. Yes, Doug, we have consensus. Those terms are precisely equivalent. 
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letabee
Private First Class
Gender: Female
Location: MN Registered: Aug 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 17 |
Posted Friday, September 15, 2006 @ 11:14 AM
Well, Eric if there is a better way/place to take care of my personal ‘WOES’ please let me know: #1 — When I decided to go ahead and check out (pun intended) Kant, I got a book because either I had no time to sit and read whatever it was you suggested, here at the library; OR I got a message about the inability of my computer/browser or whatever (what is a browser? — never mind) to display it for me. I DO know how to click on emoticons on other formats, but when I do on this one, here’s what I get: ;) or :? or:D — oh, I see now: you have to look sideways and it is not the kind I am accustomed to seeing on other formats. To get back to earlier messages: Doug: re you ? falling from grace: I recognize the teminology and I know what you mean, BUT my time is running out there is always Judas; and Anaias and Saphira, who maybe lost everything after being part of the church????? to fall from grace sounds like someone had it made (=grace) and sinned so badly that he lost his salvation; that is the comfort of salvation ongoing; the thing is : is not sin :missing the mark”????? We sin without even knowing it and that is why we call on God for mercy…………………my time is running out, I am sorry to be so aburpt; I had other business to attend to before I looked you people up …….Leta |
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detwd0hb
Sergeant First Class
Gender: Male
Location: Registered: Jul 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 50 |
Posted Friday, September 15, 2006 @ 01:43 PM
Is sin missing the mark? Before I answer that let me say this, I imagine an archer aiming at his target and oops through a miscalculation or gust of wind the archer misses his mark. Is that what sin is? Or does it not go deeper than that. Sin is at the heart of who we are. We practice sin and only become aware of it through understanding God’s law which runs contrary to our natural state. God shows us his character through his law, naturally (in our heart) we want to see what will happen if we disobey. Did you ever witness a toddler when told, “No, don’t touch that cup” the out stretched finger goes toward the cup. When we become regenerate our heart conforms to God. We no longer practice sin because that is contrary to the new nature. We still fail and break the law (sin) and our hearts repent, but as we sin and repent again and again we are being sanctified. The difference is although we sin, we no longer practice sin. There are those who profess Christ but remain unchanged. Perhaps it is not their time, perhaps they fooled themselves into thinking they are Christians when they are not nor will ever be. Paul writes in Romans 8, Quote: 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger of the sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered” 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. |
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