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A Hero on His Quest: Organic Unfolding |
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
     
 Posted Friday, February 5, 2010 @ 10:30 PM
There are several thoughts and threads that I have thought to follow up, but have never done so. Since those threads took place some time ago, I decided to start a new topic. First, there was a thread dealing with reincarnation, among other things. Second, a thread dealing with evolution and the question of its compatibility with traditional Christianity. And third, not a single thread so much as the “tangents” we get on sometimes from various threads now lost that dealt with the possibility of authentic spirituality and whether or not it is possible for that to survive even if one has lost faith in traditional forms of religion. I have related two classic spiritual metaphors on several occasions, and will briefly recap them, as I hope to put a little different perspective on them than I’ve done in the past. The first is the tale of the caterpillar that turns into a chrysalis that transforms the once-caterpillar-now-pupa into an at-first-wobbly-and-then-resplendent butterfly. The second is that of the twin human embryos who are deliberating with one another in the womb as to their ultimate fate, the one a skeptic and the other open to possibility. For that matter, we might as well tack on to metaphor the idea of spiritual rebirth, whether conceived as enlightenment, inner transformation, and/or connecting to/with God. If I were to call attention to the point of focus I currently have, I would capture that essence of these metaphors in a metaphor: there is, in a sort of way, a hero on a quest. There is, if you like, a natural journey, a natural quest, a natural venturing forth and emerging beautifully transformed. Now human beings and butterflies are not the only creatures who pass through progressive stages as they reach maturity. Virtually all of nature seems to be teeming with life, plants and creatures teeming up everywhere just as soon as you turn your back. It would seem as if the entire thing had a will to live, and not just to live, but to toil and strive toward some higher ideal. Where does this striving, whether in plant, animal, or human, come from? I can’t say that I know, but the thought does strike me that it comes from somewhere, even if that somewhere is just inherently inside a system that has always been, an idea nearly as mind-boggling as God. There’s something inside of nature—whether its own force, God’s, or whether that is essentially being redundant—some innate compulsion, drive, instinct, or whatever else that perpetuates it. There seems to be a will to live and thrive, as anyone who’s had to contend with weeds surely knows. So. There’s something inside of nature. And nature is always striving upward. Striving upward seems to me very much in keeping with evolution, precisely why such theories make the sense to me that they do. And the spiritual metaphors above: they also represent an evolution. A journey, a quest, and the process of evolving all seem to me to be part of one larger whole. I do not understand that whole. I do feel as though I have as much of a mystical connection with that whole as I ever have, and in my mind’s eye often flesh this whole into the cosmic conception of Christ as both transcendent as well as present, the friend that sticketh closer than a brother. Nevertheless, there has always been an “inner core” in the world’s religions. This inner core consists of persons earnestly pursuing their spiritual evolution, effectively using the tools of that religion to transcend themselves to increasing degree. Those persons have always been more interested in truth than in labels, more interested in reality than the safety of an altogether-too-often-too-easy certainty. The perfect model was Jesus. Jesus taught that God was our Father and could be trusted implicitly; that it was possible to share a mystical union with God. He taught that the interior was more important than the exterior, for it is in minds and hearts that the seeds the sower sows take roots. He taught that it was better to forgive than to retaliate. He taught us to love others as we loved ourselves, which is reversible, for if we love others as we love ourselves, that inherently suggests that we are to also love ourselves, forgive ourselves, take care of ourselves. To the degree that we judge others, we are judged, living in a particular hell until we can get unstuck and move on. However, what is not always as obvious is that we often judge others most harshly when we judge ourselves most harshly. While it may not be true of everyone, it has been pointed out that a good many people would recoil at the thought of saying to other people what they say to themselves in their own minds on an ongoing basis. And the more critical and unforgiving we are of ourselves—the least at peace, the least happy with ourselves, the least comfortable in our own imperfect skins—the more agitated and petty we become. By contrast, if we can somehow find that peace that passeth understanding—which largely involves living fully in reality—we are at peace with ourselves and by extension also with others. For example, this past week at work has been absolutely insane: lots of hours, and I’ll be working most of my weekend away. I understand why this is necessary, and I agree and support the decision to be very busy for a little bit, as we’ve a deadline looming over our heads, dangling before our eyes. Nevertheless, the human body cannot take hours and hours of intense mental focus without needing rest. And I have not gotten as much rest as I needed this past week. My day at work saw me in quite a few different mind frames. I understood they were illusions and sought to quell them, but they were there. The mind frame I ended up in before I left was one of “look-at-me-and-I’ll-rip-your-head-off.” So I attempted to manage that delicate balance: on the one hand, I sought to keep this perception an inward one and not let it affect my relations with my co-workers who were every bit as busy as me through no fault of anyone’s. On the other, I also sought to be easy on myself: I’m worn out, unable to focus, and feeling pressured—what do you expect, Eric? I work on keeping my self-talk, as psychologists call “talking to ourselves in our heads,” free of insult or offense. I’m not always happy with the things I do, of course, but instead of beating myself up, I attempt to find a solution—a few hours and then bed, a conversation I need to be having, a set of goals spread out over time that will alleviate or if possible eliminate the situation. My self-talk today involved a realistic appraisal of what I was experiencing, an assessment of how my behavior would affect others, and an acceptance of that reality until such time as I was able to go to bed for the evening—it is only temporary and it is an illusion insofar as it pertains to the environment upon which my thoughts project it. In times past, however, I would not have talked smack to myself so much as worried myself to death that this condition was somehow both permanent and representative of my base personality. But that is being trapped in the moment, rather than being self-aware. In any case, I mentioned reincarnation. Nobody knows what happens after we die, of course. There is as much evidence for reincarnation as there is for experiences of life-as-the-same-conscious-being, the former dependent on past-life-regressions and the latter on NDEs. In either instance, we are apparently examining the REM state, much as LSD seems to affect, or at least an altered state of consciousness. Beyond the scientific evidence for what happens when we die, we have only beliefs. It does not seem plausible for many people who cut their teeth on Christianity to consider reincarnation, but it can be defended on an equally rational basis. Let’s take not just reincarnation, but transmigration, which involves multiple lifetimes where you move up to a higher being. While it is admittedly an oversimplification, let’s say you start off as a firebug. You live, you die, you are reborn, this time as perhaps a moth, then a butterfly, and so on. That sounds remarkably like a belief-system derived from a close connection to nature, to its evolutionary characteristics, its tendency always to burst forth with an iron-clad will to live and thrive, the lone wildflower tenaciously clinging to—and springing forth from—the rocky crag. And the belief system that involves a new body historically begins with a Jewish tale of Yahweh G-d creating first the earth and its lights, then separating the waters, then progressing from lesser to greater before establishing humanity as the pinnacle of creatures on earth. While one might argue that sounds a bit like an evolutionary-like process, no one should argue that it does not represent a hierarchical classification, which later becomes highly formalized with the Medieval conception of the “great chain of being” stretching from amoebas to man to angels to God, easily enough reversed in the world of thought to ascend from some innate something-or-other outward toward a great unknown, or, if that is too nebulous, toward I AM. Who is to say where you and I came from or where we might be going? And if we won’t say, that means we are more open to all the various possibilities, our imagination fertile and productive. But it does seem true enough to me that spirituality has always involved evolution, a progression over time that leads to a higher quality of life, the hero on a quest who emerges with a few bruises and battle scars but a lot more stability and maturity. I do not see the slightest reason why everyone couldn’t be telling the truth, a classic case of the blind men and their elusive elephant.
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Saturday, February 6, 2010 @ 05:48 PM
I posted this poem by Nicholas Kazantzakis elsewhere on this Forum, but thought it was a good time to do so again because his words complement your own ideas so well, Eric. “Blowing through heaven and earth, and in our hearts and the heart of every living thing, is a gigantic breath — a great Cry — which we call God. Plant life wished to continue its motionless sleep next to stagnant waters, but the Cry leaped up within it and violently shook its roots: ‘Away, let go of the earth, walk!’ Had the tree been able to think and judge, it would have cried, ‘I don’t want to. What are you urging me to do! You are demanding the impossible!’ But the Cry, without pity, kept shaking its roots and shouting, ‘Away, let go of the earth, walk!’ “It shouted in this way for thousands of eons; and lo! as a result of desire and struggle, life escaped the motionless tree and was liberated. “Animals appeared — worms — making themselves at home in water and mud. ‘We’re just fine here,’ they said. ‘ We have peace and security; we’re not budging!’ “But the terrible Cry hammered itself pitilessly into their loins. ‘Leave the mud, stand up, give birth to your betters!’ “‘We don’t want to! We can’t!’ “‘You can’t, but I can. Stand up!’ “And lo! after thousands of eons, man emerged, trembling on his still unsolid legs. “The human being is a centaur; his equine hoofs are planted in the ground, but his body from breast to head is worked on and tormented by the merciless Cry. He has been fighting, again for thousands of eons, to draw himself, like a sword, out of his animalistic scabbard. He is also fighting — this is his new struggle — to draw himself out of his human scabbard. Man calls in despair, ‘Where can I go? I have reached the pinnacle, beyond is the abyss.’ And the Cry answers, ‘I am beyond. Stand up!’” I have come to believe that human beings are a transitional species and we shall either have to evolve or a great many of us will have to be annihilated. This seems to be the way nature works. I’m not sure if we should grieve over our demise, if that is our fate, because life will go on without us, and that is what is important. “Evolve or die” may be true on a personal level as well as on a larger scale. After all, there are many forms of death. I think your description of your current stressful work situation is a great example of a human being struggling to evolve. Our bodies and brains react to uncomfortable conditions in a predictable stimulus-response fashion…..we growl or whimper, depending on our temperaments. Yet, by using our prefrontal cortex….the most evolved portion of our brains….and reasoning about the problem, we can actually respond creatively to our environment instead of responding automatically, as lower order animals do. I am facing a similar and much more challenging dilemma, Eric, but, essentially it is the same as yours. The two parts of my brain are at war with each other. As I may have mentioned before, I have suffered from insomnia ever since childhood. It developed as a result of anticipating my parents nightime quarrels, as well as dreading unwelcome nocturnal visits from my father’s drinking buddies. Unfortunately, my bedroom was adjacent to the bathroom. I have intellectually and emotionally come to terms with those unpleasant events, but my body and primitive brain have not. Because the consequences of sleeplessness were so disruptive in my childhood….dragging myself to school in a state of exhaustion was painful…..I developed a fear of sleeplessness, which resulted in recurrent bouts of insomnia. For most of my life, when under stress, I can’t sleep. Until last year, the problem was manageable. I’d have an episode every few years, then recover and sleep normally. However, last year I made the mistake of trying to resolve the problem through psychiatric intervention and the use of pharmaceutical drugs, and the results were disastrous. It took many months to recover from that ordeal. I did…and was happy for a while…but then, my husband’s surgery, the loss of his job, and the effects of last year’s trauma contributed to the return of the dreaded condition. When I say that my brain is at war with itself, I mean that the logical/reasonable/wise and wonderful part of me is struggling to manage the irrational, unreasonable, childish and fearful part of me and, at this point, isn’t very successful at doing so. I’m trying to use meditative and relaxation techniques, but, at my age, IT IS SO DIFFICULT! I am also struggling to pray, but, this is how it usually goes: Me 1: Oh God, I need help. Please. I don’t know how to fix myself. Please please please. Me 2: C’mon….get real, People pray and pray and pray and how often does God intervene? Like….never. People think He has intervened, but, it is only because they are looking at their lives in retrospect and are spiritually inclined. Me 1: Oh shut up. If I don’t believe, prayer isn’t going to work. I have to believe. SHUT UP! Me 2: You don’t believe and you know it, so stop pretending. Me 1: I DO BELIEVE! Me 2: Liar! Me 1: I believe in God. I really do. Me 2: Yeah, you believe in God, but, you don’t have any faith in Him, do you? You REALLY think He PERSONALLY cares about you and your stupid insomnia? Me 1: Well….I guess not. But, I want to believe He does. Me 2: But, you don’t do you? You think God is a process…an attitude….the force of evolution….but….a father? A friend “who sticketh closer than a brother”? Stop lying. Me 1: Well, OTHER people claim He responds to them intimately. Me 2: But you’re not good enough? Or is it because you can’t believe? What kind of God is that? A God who insists you have to pass a “belief” test before he will respond. Ridiculous! Besides….the people to whom you are referring are self-deluded. They were brain washed in childhood. Me 1: Shut up Shut up Shut up! The most difficult aspect of insomnia is the effect that sleep deprivation on the brain. I am trying to totally disengage from my thoughts because they are all primitive and emotion-filled. Still, I must admit that I prefer them to the muddled thoughts that are produced by prescription drugs. So guys…there is my tale of woe. Since I am so lousy at praying, maybe you guys will pray for me? I don’t care if you are self-deluded. However, if I survive this ordeal, I am going to be ONE TOUGH BROAD!!!!! |
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Bev
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Aug 2008 Status: Offline Posts: 223 |
Posted Saturday, February 6, 2010 @ 10:47 PM
Thanks, Eric. Dear Sara, I am praying. --------------------
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Hawk
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Arvada, CO Registered: Aug 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 805 |
Posted Saturday, February 6, 2010 @ 11:20 PM
Admin, I can strive to act better but I’ve not seen how to become better. As a shark is drawn to blood, so is my ego drawn to that which is not good. I can strive to manage my behavior but I can not change my desires. A lady bug climbs a tree but when he gets to the top he’s still a lady bug. He did not strive upwards in the way you suggest. Science talks about entropy. Everything is breaking down, getting worse. Where is anything added to the DNA? Every mutation is lesser, not more. Mutations subtract, they don’t add. The Christian teaching is that we die and are made new. Christianity does not teach that we improve. I’ve never liked the phrase “born again” because the phrase is abused and is used to bring up all kinds of images of emotionalism and such but… The idea of being born again is scriptural. When you properly join yourself to Jesus, as the Bible says must be done, your spirit dies and you get a new one. The ultimate fulfillment of it all comes only when we physically die and are totally made new. No, I see a desire to be better and an effort sometimes to act better but not an actual change of structure or of what or who you are, at any level. If we are heroes in any way, it is in our valiant effort to manage that in us, which refuses to evolve into a better creature. Sara, Be patient. I will pray tonight, that God will give me a meaningful answer for you. Honestly, right now I don’t have one, except that I care, and I really do like you.--------------------
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Sunday, February 7, 2010 @ 02:46 AM
I’ve had some insomnia going on myself, though I think the vast majority of mine is attributable to eight to eleven hour days with a sense of an invisible thumb pressing me in my back. We’ve got so, so much to do, and I worked nearly ten hours today and will need to do it all over again tomorrow and on into the workweek. It’s only temporary, it’s only temporary, it’s only temporary. Laughs. Anyway, I don’t have too much to add to what I’ve said here, except to say, Sara, that “It’s only temporary.” I believe that: I’ve seen your ups and downs, and you’re a bit like me in that you can’t stay down forever. Bev, thanks for thanking me. I hope all is going well your way.  As for you, Hawk… well, I can’t say that I really agree with you. I don’t even think your argument is consistent with your own beliefs, to be honest. Do you not think, Hawk, that if the body takes proper nourishment, health will be the natural result rather than sickness? And so too the spirit, if it takes proper nourishment? Do you not believe that your actions are connected to who and what you are and that they both reflect your inner being as well as shape it to a degree? Take, for example, the man on the street out of work. We take him down to headquarters, have him sign some papers, and attire him in full regalia complete with a badge on his chest and a fast, state-licensed car with P-O-L-I-C-E emblazoned on the sides and an eye-shocking red and blue light bar up top. He’s just a guy on the street, but it won’t take long, as he looks into the mirror of other people’s eyes, that soon he will not only look like a cop and act like a cop, but actually become a real cop, assuming the responsibilities of his new job in full and with competance. AA has a slogan: “Fake it till you make it.” Likewise, the famous Stanford Prison Experiment very much shows that the roles human beings assume affect not only their actions but even the kind of people they become. So if that is true in a negative sense, what if we feed and nourish the positive side? Isn’t health the expected result? Wouldn’t sickness be a strange outcome? So then, hear me out. I could care less what mechanisms might be involved in evolution or even if evolution happens to be true. For my money, arguments about mutations generally amount to wounded theological feelings and little more. It doesn’t prove a thing one way or another (even if true), it is simply designed to cast doubt in favor of a particular biblical interpretation. If for one minute you try to tell me that you do not grow—and have not grown—spiritually as the years pass, I will say that your doctrine has officially overran your experience. If you dislike evolution as your word picture, choose another. Life is growth, at least in the season of growth, and the spiritual pursuit seeks after the fruits of the spirit , “growing in grace and wisdom.” When has the spiritual life NOT been about the steady cultivation of a beautiful spirit over time—if that terminology doesn’t please you, when has the spiritual life not been about becoming Godlike, learning over time to like the things God likes? If Jesus is any indication, I can see nothing more Godlike than a truly beautiful human spirit: one that seeks after that which is good, just as the Apostle admonished. Thus, if we focus our minds on being truly beautiful people in a God-like sense—focus on that which is highest, best, and most beautiful whatever terminology we use to capture it—and we seek to cultivate and nourish that aspect of ourselves, OF COURSE it will transform our character, Hawk! Just as our character is transformed when we feed our imaginations unhealthily or compromise our values for long periods of time. I couldn’t disagree with you more on anything you’ve written in a very long while; your assumptions seem more a sticking to the expected script than any true reflection of the spiritual life. I’m not trying to insult you—I really do like having you around—but I sometimes wonder if you really even know what I’m trying to say sometimes. Sometimes it seems I fit a stereotype you are predisposed not to like and it is this stereotype you are responding to rather than to me.
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Hawk
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Arvada, CO Registered: Aug 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 805 |
Posted Sunday, February 7, 2010 @ 08:44 AM
Admin, I will take more time to consider what you wrote. I do get pretty theological sometimes. The Bible has been a source of truth and direction for me so I argue from it sometimes. I’ll get back to this. Sara, I’m not very good at getting answers for other people. Let’s see if you can get your own answer though. Maybe you can be your own mystic. Try this, if you will. Go to a quiet place. Ask Jesus/ the Holy Spirit to guide you and protect you through what you are about to do. Go back, in your memory, to a painful time. Imagine that you are there again but this time imagine that Jesus is right there with you. Imagine and visualize it a bit, then ask God to give you his thoughts. Let him carry the vision. See what thoughts pop into your head. There may be an inner healing for the trauma you have experienced. --------------------
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Hawk
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Arvada, CO Registered: Aug 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 805 |
Posted Sunday, February 7, 2010 @ 09:41 AM
I hate apologies. I really do. A true apology goes so much to the very core of who you are. To really apologize is to say I have been wrong. I don’t think any of us like to do that. People treat it so lightly. That too, is an ego thing. A lady pushed her shopping cart in front of mine the other day and said, “I’m sorry.” Okay, I admit, I had contempt for that. It just seemed like a silly thing to say. I do apologize though. I don’t apologize for what I said, but for my focus. I’ve often focused on where I disagree with someone instead of where I agree. That’s negative and counterproductive. I should focus on agreement and on building instead of on disagreement which doesn’t help much of anything. Perhaps if I were more evolved I wouldn’t mind apologizing. You see, I still believe what I said. I could say it again but I won’t. I will focus on the positive, because I don’t want to be an opponent but a brother. --------------------
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Sunday, February 7, 2010 @ 11:15 AM
Hawk, I do not believe there is any need for you to apologize. You simply disagreed with our Administrator, and there was nothing personal in your attack. To be quite honest, I think he responded to you as a stereotype rather than the reverse. I also believe there is merit to your argument. I suspect you are referring to Original Sin, which I think is bullsh**, but, I agree that there is a stubborn, self-centered aspect to our characters which is virtually impossible to eliminate. I prefer to call it the Reptilian part of our brain, but, I suppose it doesn’t matter, because its power over our behavior is the same. As long as we are relatively content and comfortable, it remains quiescent and we really do begin to believe we are “evolved” people. However, when we are faced with danger or uncertainty, it instinctively goes into action to protect us. This tendency is neither “good” nor “bad”…it just is what it is, but, if we surrender to it, our ideals often fly out the window. However, as history demonstrates, not all people surrender to it, and those who don’t are usually those who have aligned their spirits with God, however they define Him. So….it IS possible to change….although I see your point that the impulse to be selfish is not really eliminated, but simply controlled. I also agree with our Administrator. People are transformed by their thoughts, and even traumatic experiences can be used to serve our ideals, if we reframe and learn from them. We DO change through time….sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad…..but, we do SEEM to have a choice, even though, when you get right down to it, “free will” is also a debatable concept. You also have to keep in mind, Hawk, that Eric is at a different point in life than we are. Because of our age, we tend to look back more often, while he most frequently looks forward. I don’t know if you’ve experienced the astonishment in discovering how little your character has REALLY altered since childhood, but it IS a surprise, isn’t it? As for the traumas of my childhood, I appreciate your suggestion and shall respond in greater detail later. Right now, I’m going for a walk. No matter how little I sleep, I insist on walking every day. |
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Hawk
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Arvada, CO Registered: Aug 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 805 |
Posted Sunday, February 7, 2010 @ 12:31 PM
No sara, I do get preachy sometimes and for that, I am sorry. Don’t mistake that with some great sadness. I don’t have that sadness. Here’s what I think we are all faced with. When we think we see a wrong belief… What do you do? Before you can learn something you sometimes have to unlearn something else. How do you “unteach” someone. Maybe you can’t. Maybe you shouldn’t. Maybe I was right. Maybe I should just put more emphasis on the positive, focus on where we agree. I certainly don’t like it when someone on this site starts correcting me so why should someone else like it if I correct them. --------------------
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Sunday, February 7, 2010 @ 01:30 PM
Yes, that is reasonable, Hawk. I am particularly focused throughout this particular period—this month, to be precise—on a world that is highly analytic and sometimes, I confess, short on patience. So, here’s how I would integrate your thoughts just now into my own. I tend to keep my eyes focused more on the ground level, because I have always believed at the heart of true Christianity exists relationship. Relationship is never static, however. Whether we are talking about human beings or the living God, we are not talking about beings that consist purely of a single moment in time or a forever-hopeless state. There are two types of “things,” if we can say, that exist on the earth. There are living things and there are inorganic things. Living things differ from non-organic things in that they must take nutrients from their environment in order to flourish in the glow of good health. However, if there is a lack of nutrients in the environment, a lack of knowledge about the existing and necessary nutrients and how to avail oneself of them, or is something within that living organism is unable to process those nutrients, the result is lack of proper nutrients and thus ill health. The trade-off for this constant need of nutrition, is life. Not a bad deal at all, as most living things have a much more interesting lifespan—even if more brief—than that of a rock, let’s say. Or at least so we assume, anyway—having never remembered being a rock before, I couldn’t say for sure. Thais principle exists even in plants, and the Christian belief has long since been that God provides for all creatures everything they need. However, the Christian belief has also been that humanity in some way or another does not always appropriate the proper nutrients around it and thus does not flourish and glow with health. Combined with that idea, Jesus taught that God was personal and immanent. He believed it was possible to establish an inner and deeper harmony with an outer and greater reality. What at least I take to be the core of his teachings involved the firm conviction that it was possible to have an intimate relationship with God. Now again, living beings are not static but instead dynamic, fluid, ALIVE. Relationships between living beings are also alive. That is why the classical Christian conceptions have talked so much about going on a journey. But not just any journey. A journey with God. A relationship. And that, to me, is the heart of authentic spirituality: the pursuit of that which is highest and best and most blessed—that which lives within each and every one of us if we learn to open our hearts and take from those rays our proper nutrients. Authentic spirituality is always about mystical relationship and resultant transformations in one’s ego state.
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Sunday, February 7, 2010 @ 02:14 PM
Laughs. Just realized there was a whole string of posts preceding these last two. Yes, no doubt I did respond to Hawk more as a stereotype myself, though I know why I’m a little more edgy lately in that regard. I don’t like to incriminate other people in my life, but I do have to say that my father seems a lot more cantankerous, which I do not attribute to the natural process of aging so much as I do his view of the world. That is, I grew up without a television. I watched it some at my grandma’s house, but no less: my parents had no television. The first thing I noticed after they got their television was how “informed” they seemed: they knew the names of more actors and actresses than I did, or what happened today in the Far East. What I believe I have seen, however, is a steady decline as they have more and more relied on the television as their primary news source. And what “news source” means for them, ultimately, is “world view.” The news is probably factual, for the most part, even granting reporter bias. While it is factual, it is not truly representative of the real world. It is about the latest story or sensation—always something so much larger than life. But real life—where reality most is to be found—does not exist in those extremes. So, here’s the deal. See, I love my father a great deal. There are qualities in him that I still admire to great degree. And… I think I understand him. He wants to go down fighting. He’s got a cause he believes strongly in, is resilient to all opposition, and will die knowing that he has held true and faithful to the straight and narrow. He doesn’t have a lot of life or energy left, but what energy he has, he is going to use to go down fighting for just causes. That is, at least, the story that plays out in his mind. But Sara’s absolutely correct. I am at a different place, not drastically different, than many people, in fact. I love my father, but I am an adult man. I am pragmatic, I am idealistic, and between the two I think I am quite realistic. Maybe overly so even, Hawk. So, I love my father and I admire the feat he sees himself performing, but I also as an adult man have to ask myself “Is it worth it?” particularly as I believe that his view of the world has been distorted by a disproportionate serving of news combined with the passionate belief that God and GOP somehow just go together. Nothing wrong with the news either, just so long as you’re able to distinguish between entertainment, rhetoric, and reality. Not everybody’s been trained to do that. So, you see. I say again: I love my dad. It’s not easy to hold the perception that your father in languishing when he could be liberated. I kinda feel like I’ve already lost my dad, you know. Also, I think Sara’s correct in saying that as one looks back over one’s life it seems we’ve changed so little. But I also believe that is a perception. The change that I most seek in myself is the change that being open brings. If I look back over my life and I see a life where I lived, for the most part, fully in every moment—and learned from those moments where that was not the case—I will have done all the changing I need. Hero on a quest is truly a bad choice of metaphors, Hawk, and I wince in that regard. There aren’t any heroes. Only human beings. Only you and me. But a lifetime lived well is its own reward. That’s what I seek. I seek the things I seek because they are their own rewards. That is change and transformation, cultivation, a life well lived. So, while I agree that Sara’s perception is not only correct in the sense of one’s internal sense of “Vanity of vanity, sayeth the preacher. All is vanity, a chasing after the wind,” but to some degree an objective observation, I also think that we have changed a great deal more than we thought we did. It’s just we wonder if it even mattered. The problem may only be that we’ve come full circle, not the same of course, but to an end. We see that things do not now seem as they seemed. But those things have never left us, and ends can even now become new beginnings, a drama our psyches play out hundreds of times throughout the course of a well-lived life. The final hope has always been that somehow the end itself will also be a new beginning: a portal into another sphere. I remember times from my marriage where I genuinely made Amanda so happy that she forgot herself, and I got to see the little girl for a little bit, so to speak. She always will be that little girl, happily vulnerable, even if there are other cares and concerns weighing down on her. It’s just that when she’s weighed down, she is not fully awoken. It is precisely these cares and concerns that Jesus describes as the thistles and thorn that choke out the seed and keep it from growing. And he spoke explicitly to those who were weary and heavy-laden, in need of rest—he was a spiritual physician and healer. He instructed them to come to him, and take on his yoke, which he described as gentle and easy. He promised to give them rest. I think that I am more terse than usual with Hawk because of both my father and my insane work schedule. Thistles and thorns. But that little girl’s still there. And this little boy’s still here.
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Sunday, February 7, 2010 @ 04:55 PM
I know it sounded like I was reprimanding you, Admin., but I wasn’t. I simply thought you were wrong. I assumed it was because you were tired. Trust me…I KNOW that feeling! Your comments about time reminded me of my all-time favorite lines from a poem by T S Eliot….. And the end of all our exploring Will be to arrive where we started And know the place for the first time. Your relationship with your dad brings to mind Jung’s frustration with his father, who was a rigid, melancholic, Swiss parson. He wanted so much for his dad to break free from the self-imposed intellectual shackles of religious dogma, but the man would not budge, despite his obvious doubt and misery. Their disparate beliefs separated them emotionally, which caused Jung much sorrow, although there was nothing much he could do about it except love him despite their differences. I imagnie his father felt the same way, although I’m not sure of that….I’m just guessing. |
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Sunday, February 7, 2010 @ 10:36 PM
One more thing, Admin., I thought your observations about the effect of TV news on your dad’s worldview were quite interesting and utterly accurate. I’ve been thinking about this issue quite a lot lately because I SEE how shallow & silly & endlessly confrontational (because it is more entertaining) news and reporting has become these days and it frustrates and annoys me. The only way to really find out what is happening in the world is to watch the BBC and World News channels, and even they, by necessity, lack depth. Americans have become such mindless puppets, focusing upon and repeating whatever crap the media tells us to attend to and we presume we are well informed. Yeah yeah….there’s news on the Web, but most of it lacks objectivity. Besides, we only go to websites that confirm our views. Sorry if I sound crabby, but, gee whiz, it’s all so…..well, BORING! People are so predictable…..including me. I definitely have to turn off the tube. We are all beginning to think alike, which really means we have ceased attempting to think at all. |
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Greg
Command Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Springfield, Missouri Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 432 |
Posted Monday, February 8, 2010 @ 02:23 PM
I have skimmed just a little of each of the posts here and therefore am not up to speed to speak to any train of thought that might have been carried throughout. However. I was wanting to post something because I just had one of the most “seemingly” productive conversations I think I have ever had with a friend of mine. This particular friend has been at war with God most of his adult life - mostly because of his fundamentalist upbringing and his own personal failures. He has “evolved” into a person who I would describe as someone who secretly ( but not very good at keeping the secret ) is constantly feeling like God is out to get him - to stick it to him in some fashion because he is what he is as a person - or how he sees himself as a person - a failure in many respects. So he goes about his life always knowing that God is going to always stick it to him because he is imperfect. And yet at the same time he makes the confession and has the belief that God made him who he is. And so he is bitter because he feels like he understands that he is what he is and feels like he must take the responsibility for who he is but is always suspecting that God never really gives him a chance to be successful because he was made with certain faults - catch 22. He seems to me much like the pot that Paul says has been created as a vessel of dishonor. The pot dares to complain to the potter “Why have you made me this way”. To which Paul say “Who are you pot to find fault with God”. I don’t really know where Paul was trying to go with this little bit of chat but I think that the place my friend has gone with that passage is that “Even if you turn out to be something created for destruction you have no right to complain about it. ” Not a very cheery prospect. Anyway….I was talking with my friend about his particular relationship with God and I told him that I thought he was committing the unpardonable sin - as Jesus taught. The unpardonable sin, as I have come to believe in it, is to say or to think or to believe that the “Spirit” of God or the essence of the animating force of life is evil. I have often wondered why Jesus would say that this particular sin is “unpardonable” especially when Jesus says during the same teaching about this sin that ALL MANNER OF SINS MEN COMMIT (not can be) WILL BE FORGIVEN. But not blasphemy against the holy spirit. Why not? I think it is because the unpardonable sin is a state of being and not a sinful act. It is basically the state of believing that Good is evil. Or more specifically that the animating force of life is evil. - or less than “GOOD”. So that would translate (for the person who thinks of God as a person) into believing that God has less than good intentions toward a person or that God is less than “Good”. So as long as a person is in this “state” of being it is impossible to be forgiven - in fact being forgiven would not and can not “fix” the problem. God could forgive you all he wants to but that does not change your state of being in the mind frame that says Good is in some respect evil. You yourself have created a universe where GOOD IS EVIL. This seems to be more proof to me that Jesus taught that we are who empower God in some respects. So it has become my belief that the unforgivable sin is unpardonable and the one who commits this sin is always in some state of suffering for the sin FOR AS LONG AS ONE COMMITS THE SIN ONLY - In other words forgiveness is not the antidote for the suffering that this sin causes to an individual. There is no forgiveness offered for this sin because this sin is always going to cause those who commit it repercussions. The only way to stop the repercussions is to stop the sin. Kind of like I can forgive you for killing me but I can’t forgive you for killing yourself. My forgiveness is of no value and has no power over you in that respect. So I have come to see a person who thinks God is out to get him as someone who is committing an unpardonable sin. As well as any other version of “thinking” that leads one to see the animating force of life to be less than “Good” is a version of this sin . And the problem does not need to be forgiven to be fixed it needs to be recognized as suicide by those who are doing it - so they can stop doing it. And I also think that everyone has been guilty or is guilty of this sin at some point in time in their lives. Anyway……I shared these thoughts with my friend and he said it made sense to him. I was dumbfounded. I don’t think I have convinced this friend of anything for 20 years. As a side note I think this same sin applies to human relationships. I can forgive a person all I want to but I can’t create a working relationship with them EVER if they continue to “suspect” me of being evil or deceived. Does our political climate ring a bell with anyone along these lines? Why do some on the right now seem to think that the whole world is going to end if Obama has his way in any fashion? Could it be they have fallen into the sin of thinking of him as evil - or deceived - and therefore are living in an alternate universe where they create a sort of manifest destiny at all times in their own minds that will actually make their own world worse as a result? Sure seems possible to me. --------------------
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Bev
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Aug 2008 Status: Offline Posts: 223 |
Posted Monday, February 8, 2010 @ 06:18 PM
Wow, good thoughts Greg. Destiny in their own minds. Yeah. Nobody trusting. But am glad to hear that your friend agreed. What is it? People stuck in their own minds? Eric, I really appreciated your sharing about your Dad. I think I feel the same way about some of my close relatives. And then Sara relating Jung and his father. I can’t truly communicate with the fundamentalists in my family, because they don’t trust me. It seems to me they’re stuck in their thinking and they can’t see the great big whole world and the possibilities that are there. And yes, Hawk does get preachy sometimes. Doesn’t mean I don’t like him. Maybe I don’t always trust his perspective, cause he’s kinda like my fundamentalist relatives sometimes. So there - could be I’m stereotyping also. But, Hawk, I don’t understand why you can’t believe someone can become better. They do. I’ve seen you get better right here on this forum. Thanks for those lines from T. S. Eliot, Sara. Funny, just yesterday some friends and I were discussing “starting over”. She asked with frustration, “Why was I surprised by this - didn’t I learn this before? Why am I back here again?” You know a friend, (he was a big Chinese guy, looked a bit like a sumo wrestler) thirty years ago, as we were sitting and “philosphising” , as we often did, said, “You know, Bev, Life is … . falling down and getting back up again, and falling down and getting back up again, and falling down and getting back up again… . “ He was right. But in “getting back up again”, it helps to know there is a loving God who has my best interest at heart. And that it’s most likely God (no matter how you think of God) who gets us back up. Or gives us the will to get back up and keep going. Maybe the “Hero on His Quest.” Sara, I wish there were something I could do for your insomnia. I commend you for taking your walks no matter how you’re feeling. That has to be good. I was wondering how much you’ve read on diet? I’ve heard you speak of children on ritalin and how much you (and me) abhor the idea. I guess you’ve read accounts on how diet can change a child’s life? Anyway, forgive me for always trying to find answers and being guilty of trying to make things too simple sometimes. I will continure to keep you in my prayers. --------------------
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Monday, February 8, 2010 @ 07:06 PM
I edited my confessional posting. Much too personal. I suspect it made everyone as uncomfortable as it made me when I reread it the next day. |
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Greg
Command Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Springfield, Missouri Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 432 |
Posted Monday, February 8, 2010 @ 07:33 PM
Bummer, I hadn’t got around to reading it yet. Now I am gonna always think I missed out on some good stuff. I don’t blame you though Sara, I scrubbed quite a few of my worst outbreaks on here some time ago. I mean I have to maintain some appearance of sanity. --------------------
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Greg
Command Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Springfield, Missouri Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 432 |
Posted Monday, February 8, 2010 @ 08:11 PM
I am reminded of that country song that was out a few years ago called…..well I don’t know what it was called and I am probably a better man for it ….but the chorus was “Let me let go, baby. Let me let go.” The story line of the song is that of a love sick person in a doomed relationship so throughly overcome by their love that they were requesting help from their beloved to get over them. When I heard this song the first few times I thought that most people could probably grasp and appreciate the sentiments but I wondered how many people have actually been there and maybe even gotten help from a lover to “let go”. I don’t know just how crazy this thought is but it seems to me this might be a good prayer in some way Sara. God….let me let go. --------------------
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Greg
Command Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Springfield, Missouri Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 432 |
Posted Monday, February 8, 2010 @ 10:33 PM
For those with a soft spot for anguish of the human heart put to music. Here is the song. Embed is disabled so you would have to click to watch it on youtube. --------------------
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Tuesday, February 9, 2010 @ 01:13 AM
Some pretty interesting thoughts. I managed to dig myself out of my hole enough to be caught up for a new week, so that was good, and I spent the evening playing a board game some of you may have played before called Diplomacy. Between my tiredness and the whiskey I drank in lieu of everyone else’s beer, I’m probably not the most qualified at the moment to say anything too profound. Suffice it to say, I lost royally, but it was interesting to get a glimpse of my co-workers after work, particularly as the game was chaired by my JavaScript sidekick Jessie.  However, I did want to add a few thoughts, at least. First, I can certainly understand why you edited your post, Sara—and that is one of the reasons I try to make this forum as user-friendly as possible. (And, if I ever get a moment, I’ve got a new plan for avatars that will make them INCREDIBLY easy to change and to keep an array in your archive so you can change them out regularly—and effortlessly—if you wish. But all of that will have to wait until work gives me a chance to breathe. At least the prototype is working, but it’s still pretty buggy.) As you probably know from experience, even the most empathetic people in the universe tend to undergo less horror over true confessions than those doing the confessing. I know there have been times my own words have helped people, yet to some degree it was at the cost of feeling like I’d opened my life to voyeurs, a feeding frenzy of sorts complete with hypnotism and fangs. For that matter, I’ve always wondered how people who court voyeurs are able to do it year after year, but that is another story altogether. (I’m rambling—it’s that poison I drank earlier.) From my perspective, I thought that what you wrote was another step toward wholeness. You were probably right in removing it, but for the short time it was seen, it was read by a handful of people who you pretty well trust. We can get a bit nippy at each other at times, but we tend to play well together more than we don’t. I would be greatly surprised if anyone’s opinion or feelings of you have changed in the slightest: I see you no differently than I ever have. For that matter, throughout my teens and twenties, most of my close friends were girls, and, it so happened, the vast majority of them had been compromised. Then again, perhaps that’s not surprising. The sexual glue that holds our race together is also capable of leaving behind some pretty slimy trails. I certainly understand that well, as I am a member of the half of human species who have the higher testerone levels. And what do you do about it, exactly? It’s biology. But biology does not determine your ability to will the golden rule, and while my thoughts have not always been wholesome, at least they have never grown destructive wings toward another person in that way. That said, I have plenty of other demons in my closest, so no pot is calling any kettle black here.I liked what everyone said here. I agree with Bev that Greg’s thoughts are relevant. I think there is something to be said for unforgivableness as a state of being one puts oneself in and which one is capable of getting oneself back out of if one but sees and/or wills. As C.S. Lewis always liked to say, hell is a place where the doors are all locked from the inside. Last—as I’m beginning to fade on you all and have work tomorrow—I’ve read a fair amount on Jung’s life and have seen some definite parallels between his life and my own. I’m sure we are two rather different people, but some of his life circumstances and the conclusions he drew from them do sound eerily like my own—like my own, at least I believe, before Jung’s words had occasion to influence them. (And he did grow up without a TV—wink.) Well, I’m off to bed. Sorry there’s nothing any more profound in me tonight than this. I’m not feeling tipsy now so much as tired—alcohol is, as people remind us, a depressant. Night night. Wish me well in the land of never-ending coding tomorrow. Nothing like JavaScript for the soul. |
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Hawk
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Arvada, CO Registered: Aug 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 805 |
Posted Sunday, February 14, 2010 @ 12:43 PM
Does anyone remember prayer in public schools? They’ve been talking about it in the news today. Honestly, I’m not sure I remember it and I’m near 60 years old. I guess it was allowed when I was young but the teachers must have been pretty timid. Come to think of it my home was pretty timid about it too. --------------------
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Greg
Command Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Springfield, Missouri Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 432 |
Posted Sunday, February 14, 2010 @ 04:18 PM
Hawk, I can vaguely remember in 4th grade being read Bible stories in class by my teacher but I can’t recall having prayer except in the locker room before sports events. --------------------
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Monday, February 15, 2010 @ 11:38 PM
Well, by the time my generation came around, we said the pledge of allegiance in the lower grades complete with its now controversial line, but prayer was neither encouraged nor discouraged. And while no public school official was allowed to proselytize, we were sometimes aware of our teachers’ Christian faith. I remember Mrs. Maas, my third-grade teacher, who saw me at a Billy Graham revival where I’d felt the need to make a public confession by walking down to the front to be led into a prayer room. And she did, in her own way, shine in some kind of inward way: she was compassionate and kindly, really caring about the kids in her keep. |
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Bev
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Aug 2008 Status: Offline Posts: 223 |
Posted Tuesday, February 16, 2010 @ 07:50 AM
Aw, what a sweet little boy. Was the crusade held in Springfield? I remember loving my 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th grade teachers especially. We, of course, did have prayer and church every morning because it was a Catholic school. My 2nd grade teacher was Sister Ann Phillip, who wore the complete habit, covering all her hair. I remember being excited one time when her hair fell out and we could see the color. She was a beautiful, young woman - so different than Sister Agnes who I had in the first grade with some very bad memories. She must have been 90 years old! (Well that’s an exaggeration, of course, but she was too old to deal with first graders, that’s for sure. She was gone the next year.) But years later, we heard that young Sister Ann Phillip and Father Anders, had left the parish and married. My son, John, graduated from Rogersville in ’99 and I remember at his homecoming football game, there was prayer over the loudspeaker before the game. And the girls on the queen’s court at half-time confessed their faith in Christ. Not everyone of them, but several. Rogersville is a public school, but I don’t know if things like that still take place there. Sara, I wanted to say a while back that your personal accounts neither made me uncomfortable nor to think any less of you. In fact, I admired that you comforted the old man in his last days. There is good and evil in all of us and you seem to latch on to the good in people. You are a good force for this world. Here are some quotes I read yesterday if I may share: “We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.” ~Aristotle and “The mind grows by what it feeds on.” ~Josiah G. Holland Peace and love --------------------
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Thursday, February 18, 2010 @ 06:13 PM
Hi Bev. No, I went to grade school in Bolivar most of my life; I don’t think the Billy Graham crusade was in Springfield, but it might have been. That’s been quite a while back—laughs. Anyway, I meant to respond to you much, much sooner, but my week’s gotten away from me. At least we’re beginning to get caught up at work, so that’s good. By the end of the week, we should be pretty well caught up. Well, have to go: I’m going to a sushi bar with a friend this evening, so need to get motoring.
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Monday, February 22, 2010 @ 11:35 PM
Another day of coding followed by another night of decoding, and thought I might sit for a tiny bit. Life looks like it may get a little saner very soon—we’ve got four more days and we’ve been making really good time: the project should roll out on the completion date with a bit of time off for all of us to spare. I know that it sometimes feels as though my days and nights out with a steady stream of friends all blend into a sort of dream, given enough time. I’m certainly looking forward to some time off to decompress! If all pans out as expected, we all work from home Wednesday and Thursday while new “Star Trek” furniture gets installed to match our existing islands. No one can think with all that racket going on in the background—I understand these island things bolt down into the concrete—and it comes at a time where the team has been working really hard, is two to three days ahead of schedule (barring unforeseen obstacles), and need really only be “on call at home” those days. Perhaps I might even get a new avatar system in place on this forum, though perhaps not: my life is best described, at this point at least, as crazy—not bad crazy, but certainly as interesting as any movie you might see. And, I’m rather certain no one will complain if I get out of bed an hour or two later if I’m working from the house—we function a bit like the Borg, only friendlier. Plug in when you wish (within degree) and be on a team of creative people who write some amazing creations into existence. Spiritually speaking, I’m not sure. I haven’t lost my faith or anything, but I’ve been a bit of the feral child as of late I fear. Father Jon contacted me via a pleasant and simple e-mail a week ago, though he did not comment on my response. I think my parents know that I haven’t gone to church in months, but what I find almost sad, in a way, is that my father in particular seems more concerned with who I might vote for and why than he does about my negligence in attending services. I mean, I guess that’s cool, and he really has no say in whether I attend or whether I don’t attend. Still, the kid who I think did genuinely “get it,” kinda wishes that if my father is going to be concerned about my well-being, he should be more concerned with seeing me cultivate my spiritual faith than in shaking my fist at political caricatures standing for causes I don’t believe in. Of course, he’s been burned by churches—I was right there with him on several occasions. Once I passed sixteen, I was not forced to go and I didn’t, and I think that part of that was because we had been through so many schisms. But you know, looking back I wonder if even then it had to be that way. My father is stalwart in all of his ways, which can be an admirable characteristic, but when carried to excess, does not lead to the kind of moderation that sees the larger picture more clearly. He thinks he’s seeing a larger picture—he might even be correct—but I think he’s barking at noises in the dark, being distracted by a world of conspiracies and intrigues. As for me? I think in this regard I see more clearly, but overall? Only time will tell, I suppose. Not all my choices are wise ones by far, but I generally learn from even the poorest ones. As the author in Ecclesiastes suggests, even in my folly wisdom is by my side. Which reminds me, Hawk: you should start a church for night people—one where they don’t have to get out of bed before noon on Sundays to attend. (It might be kinda lame as excuses go, but seriously: I sometimes even miss responding to phone calls and e-mails because there is rarely a down moment, so during such weird times, you try to sleep when you can. I wasn’t going to be making any promises to Father Jon I could not keep: Ever try to get out of bed when your eyelids feel glued shut because of how short of a time ago it was they first shut in sleep? Until that time passes, no one will see me in church, however much real benefit I might gain from it.)Well, evening everyone. Time for this kiddo to make hay.
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Hawk
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Arvada, CO Registered: Aug 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 805 |
Posted Wednesday, February 24, 2010 @ 11:26 AM
I must learn a new way to look at church. I really must. Actually, I already have a new way of looking at church. It just takes time to get this down into my heart, this different way. When I get together with guys to pursue God I prefer to meet in someone’s house rather than at the facilities of a church. Then, when we begin to study or talk about God, I make it a real point to have a leaderless meeting. Is that hard to imagine, a church meeting without a pastor or priest present? That’s what I do. No one in charge. We worship God and we do not do that under a human leader. People can learn to talk, to worship, to pursue God without arguing and getting loud. It can be done I’m sure. If the crowd gets too large we set up one master chair. Whoever has something to say to us, some teaching or something, take that chair. If they are not connecting very well we will ask them to yield the chair to someone else. There is a picture in the Bible of a leaderless meeting. It’s in 1 Cor 14:26. It says, “When you come together… ” so it is talking about some kind of meeting of the people, the church. It then goes on to describe a situation in which anyone that wants to might have a part in the meeting. No pastor is mentioned. What about the “regular” church? I have to rethink those things too. My wife and I went to church last week. Now my wife is more reluctant to go to church than I am. She goes maybe once every couple of months. This church we went to is one that is a bit strange. That’s okay with me. I don’t mind strange. At the end of the service the pastor was praying for people and they would fall on the floor when he prayed. He then said that God had spoken to him that someone here has a problem with a hiatial hernia. My wife has that so she … she hesitated… but she did stand up. He called her to the front of the church to pray for her. Skip forward now to when we are driving home. My wife was angry. She says that guy didn’t even give God a chance to work. He just pushed me down onto that chair. ……. Now how do I deal with this? I like this guy. I respect him, and yet it seems like he sometimes is so intent on seeing the power of God in a situation that he has to mimick it. This guy does the real thing sometimes. I’ve seen it. If you are interested you can see it. Look on UTube for Dave Duell in Kenya. Tell me what YOU think. I think that was real. Other times it is not. How do I blend that which is real with that which is embellished? I have a friend that went to this preacher. My friend was in a time of trouble in life. His wife had died a few years before, now another friend dieing. He was really desperate to see the REAL power of God in his life but he was very skeptical of this stuff. Well, that friend told me that the preacher not only dropped him into a chair without touching him but also knew which part of his heart was damaged with a heart attack a few years before. In other words my friend, having been the skeptic, says this was real. Here’s my point. Churches always get things wrong. I don’t care what kind of church you go to. They are full of excesses and deficiencies. Let’s be honest, churches can be fairly hypocritical. I guess that’s alright with me. I can put up with the struggle people go to, to experience God in their lives. All I ask of church is that they allow me to be honest. We can try to instigate God into something but let’s at least acknowledge that it is our effort to do it, and let’s not always insist that we have been real. For what it’s worth, I am going to talk to that preacher about why he sometimes has to pretend to the power of God. You know something? I don’t think it will bother him at all. He’s a pretty solid guy. Yes, I do have to rethink church. Maybe my place in church is just to be a clear and uncompromising voice of honesty among some who are pretending. --------------------
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Thursday, February 25, 2010 @ 11:22 PM
Pretty tired tonight: far from being an easy two days off, it has proven anything but. I’m running on little sleep again after coding long hours the last two days. But we’re so, so close… and this module HAS to be done by the first of the month. We’re in crunch time. Anyway, I haven’t watched the video yet—don’t feel up to doing too much else after I type this reply, to be honest—but here’s a direct link to it, for me to find later and everybody else’s convenience as well. I don’t know, Hawk. I mean, I know what you’re saying, but I’m not sure that we live in quite the same world sometimes. I don’t mean that in a negative way at all, by the way. I just mean that your entire worldview, is, well, for lack of a better term, so “biblical” and mine really is not. There was a time when mine was very much like your own, and I spent a lot of time reflecting on church as well, such as this comment (see Addendum #2) that Lambert Dolphin cared enough to re-post. But what’s different now is that there is not a great deal of overtly spiritual anything in my life, though I do think that life itself always has its moments: I certainly agree with you 100% in that sense—church, of any sort, is not required for a visitation by the Spirit. And I have found in many ways that I feel closer to God when I’m more in touch with the everyday events, “present in the moment,” so to speak: engaged, aware, interested. My point in mentioning my father, however, was that to my mind it is a sort of metaphor for where his priorities now lie in life. In this metaphor, church is a generic word for fellowshipping together in an overtly spiritual setting where the teachings of Jesus are revered. As such, it is a metaphor for Christ. By contrast, rather than badgering me about church (which I could respect), my father is instead on a political mission where I am supposed to in the end ultimately agree (even if only to myself) that Obama is a very bad, scheming person, that Muslims are HIGHLY suspect (though they never used to be when I was growing up), and that the cess-pool of liberalism is filled much higher with liars, swindlers, and thieves so much more so than those who uphold more traditional values, such as guns and private property. As such, this is a metaphor for politics. My point is that my father is more concerned about politics—it almost seems to me sometimes—than he seems to be about God. I’m not one to be casting blame, but it hasn’t always been like this. It used to be that even though I disagreed with him, I still could secretly value the sincerity of his beliefs. But now, I see an aging man who seems, to my mind at least, poisoned by the cess-pool of politics period. When you combine the fact that I see his activism as sucking the spirit from my father with the fact that his life force is itself slipping away, well… That’s why I say that if he has to be on my case all the time, I’d so much rather it be for something that is intended for the good and pure rather than something polarized, and, frankly, often ugly, both aesthetically as well as—dare I say it—morally. I can respect a man who says “Jesus is my friend,” or “God is the most important thing in the world” and whose actions clearly show that he has found many moments of bliss from his Godly pursuit. But when my own father not only begins saying things that I believe with all my heart are patently false (because, among other things, they seem to have so little of Christ in them), but even begins to change in temperament, becoming more negative and living in an imagination (however real it might be, should he be right and I be wrong) that appears to bask in political intrigue, suspicion, and whatever other delicate morsels might feed the palate of bitter gall. I don’t know. I probably am making too much of it though. I’m really tired, for one thing, and I’ve been coding day after day nonstop for months now, which of course will be the story of my life as long as I continue on at IWS. And I guess, knowing that my father is not growing any younger, I kinda wish I could enjoy the last few years with the kindler, gentler man who lives in my memory and I believe was real enough. But I can’t see inside my dad’s head. If I could, I’d probably understand. I really have no way of knowing what his underlying emotional state is, what questions keep him up at night that he fends off by day by the righteous indignation he works up over liberal politicians. I don’t guess it matters. But I would do well to remember that he has his world, just as I have mine, and the realest world beneath is no doubt the true cause of the direction his life appears to have taken. So then, off to bed. Thanks for letting me vent for a bit.
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Friday, February 26, 2010 @ 10:50 AM
In regard to your dad, Admin, the question seems to be…..has he changed or have you changed? Is your disenchantment with him a result of perceiving him with greater clarity and fewer childish projections or is he indeed radically different from the man he was in your youth? Obvious answer is, of course, that you’ve both changed and although you still love each other because of the intimacy of the father-son bond, you are probably both disillusioned with each other and, if not related, would not choose each other as friends. This isn’t to suggest that you are devoid of warmth or admiration for each other’s qualities, but, in a very real sense, you see the world in ways that conflict with each other’s worldviews, and thus have become alienated. In additon to personal changes, there is the added complication of historical changes, which also affects how we interact with the world. The economic and political decline of America’s fortunes are scaring the sh** out of most people and, as usual, they are looking for a simplistic answer, which unfortunately results in scapegoating or demonizing the opposition. The advent of 24 hr cable news has had, in my opinion, disasterous consequences on the American psyche. Everyone presumes that, because they watch a large quantity of news, they are well informed, when, in reality, they have simply succeeded in brainwashing themselves by watching shows whose hosts agree with them. I’ve recently returned from Florida and was stunned to learn to what degree the conservatives parroted Glen Beck (that guy wields ENORMOUS power down there) and the liberals (the few I could find) got their information from the Daily Show. Virtually no one reads a newspaper anymore. I guess this is nothing new because there has always been books and newspapers with an agenda, but, at least, in the past, there were reporters who strove to be objective, which has now become exceedingly rare. This is not helpful in a democratic society, which demands, to some degree at least, an educated electorate to survive. Societal values have changed, too, which is very upsetting to many of us older folk. As I’ve said before, the old Gods are dying and have yet to be replaced, although the New Agers are doing their best to find a solution to the problem, incorporating evolution, quantum theory, and the cheerful aspects of comparative religion into their belief system. For someone like you dad, whose whole life has been in service to a particular creed, this is very threatening, and so, he entrenches himself more deeply into his faith and the politics that support it. I’ve been to several churches recently and my experiences in them confirms my belief that they are primarily social organizations, devoted to similar ideals. I don’t condemn this…..after all, the extended family has declined, but human beings are still tribal creatures and need emotional support from others, whether in church or on website forums or 12 step programs. As for the decline in your faith, Admin….I find myself in a similar position. I am not a fan of David Klinghoffer (who even wrote an article entitled “Why God is a Republican”), but I did agree with him when I read this statement…. The deepest question at stakd in the culture war is not abortion or Hell, not evolution or homosexuality, but rather this: Does the universe operate on the principle of randomness or under the role of transcendent Providence? As usual, I vacillate. |
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Greg
Command Sergeant Major
Gender: Male
Location: Springfield, Missouri Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 432 |
Posted Friday, February 26, 2010 @ 04:34 PM
The deepest question at stakd in the culture war is not abortion or Hell, not evolution or homosexuality, but rather this: Does the universe operate on the principle of randomness or under the role of transcendent Providence? Straw man alert. --------------------
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Friday, February 26, 2010 @ 05:36 PM
I don’t know what “straw man alert” means. |
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Friday, February 26, 2010 @ 05:45 PM
I just looked up Sraw Man fallacy… A straw manargument is aninformal fallacybased on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. [1 ] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position. [1 ][2 ] I see your point. H |
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Hawk
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Arvada, CO Registered: Aug 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 805 |
Posted Friday, February 26, 2010 @ 05:47 PM
Straw man alert ~ Well a straw man is not real, or is at least weak. The question seems to be, is God a straw man? If God just created the universe and set it off to run on it’s own, hence the randomness, then any connection we have with him would be, as with a straw man. Or there is transendent providence, meaning God has a plan and has a continuing part in the unfolding of events. Have I got it right there? Is God, or our connection with him, as with a straw man? --------------------
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Monday, March 1, 2010 @ 08:08 PM
Hey, just wanted to thank you for your insightful response, Sara. I read it the other day, but I’ve been working so many hours that’s as far as I’ve gotten. Today I had lunch with my folks. I was dead tired—up until 2 working on the program, then back up and in to work early since today is the first, the day we needed to be done. (And ironically, I did little work today at all, namely because my IDE—that is, my text editor used for writing computer code—crashed on me and the front office spent parts of their day trying to get me patched up, using—again the irony—a program I have long since used at home.) Anyway, I was tired, but they knew what was going on, and we had a decent lunch. My dad only talked politics at the end, and even then he was respectful and diplomatic. At one point, he described a political cartoon and my mom said, “I don’t think I forwarded you that one.” What she didn’t say—but which I knew and appreciated—is that she is aware that the whole political thing is a barrier that exists between my father and I in particular, and is prudent enough to by-pass me when political stuff is involved (unless it is just generally funny to everybody). She is never preachy and never has been, but most of what she sends me is either general humor or else intended to be spiritually uplifting. I guess that’s what moms are for, and I certainly love mine. :) Anyway, still tired in spite of about a two-hour long nap (after getting home an hour later on top of everything else). However, I did want to say that I thought what you said in particular made a lot of sense to me, Sara. And of course your recent trip to Florida has given you further insights into the various worlds Americans habitually live in.
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Monday, March 1, 2010 @ 09:23 PM
Virtually every truly “big idea” is based on a metaphor: By the way, as a side-note, I will say that my month-long crash-course has not been all bad. It certainly forces you to be more resourceful and to try to find legitimate short-cuts however, whenever, and whereever possible. Not only that, but if you lack the “big picture” understanding of what is going on with the individual parts, that too slows you down. That’s where I’m at right now—still learning to see, understand, fully conceptualize this ever-expanding “big picture.” That is the other thing. It’s forced me back to the text books. Not the kind I used to read about life, but the kind I never read in college or in my leisure about (1) computer code and (2) the insurance industry from the inside. (I used to read tech blogs in my leisure time though.) However, I’ve been checking out books on object-oriented programming, because now that I’m starting to “get it,” I will be able to track and follow, seeing the bigger picture I’m lacking right now. About big pictures. Imagine, if you will, that you are given the opportunity to operate a new, computerized machine. What this machine does is control a set of robotic arms that are, in effect, bottomless paint rollers—that is, picture a can of paint, a ladder, and a paint roller that never runs dry, then forget about the can and the ladder. There are only certain areas you can paint, and if you make a mistake, the machine will immediately alert you, and you have to activate another set of robotic arms that goes back over the area with paint thinner, albeit one made for the purpose that happens to work amazingly well. Now imagine that you are trying to find out which areas you need to paint with your computerized controls and which areas you don’t. You could proceed by trial and error. Eventually you would have painted all the areas that needed painting and removed paint from all the areas that didn’t. That would take you forever and cost a lot of extra wasted money in time spent. But what if you knew that you were supposed to paint the face of Leonardo Da Vinci? Now of course, you probably don’t know exactly what he looks like, but you can always Google for that. But even if Google didn’t exist, you know you’re painting a face. That in itself is a huge leap in understanding the “bigger picture.” And the machine will guide you through until you have it painted flawlessly. Think how much time you have saved yourself, simply by having a much clearer mental picture. You’ve cut your time down massively, even not knowing exactly what Da Vinci looks like—even if you’ve not much talent for painting faces, particularly given the circumstances. When you started, you had NO IDEA what areas needed to be painted and which didn’t, much less why. Now you have an idea of the game plan, and while you might lack talent and bumble a bit—maybe not be quite as fast as somebody else—you’re still miles ahead of where you were before, all because you have a conceptual understanding of everything involved with the task at hand: “Here are my objectives, here’s why: Now I’ll go try and do my best.”So too, the entirety of the computer world is best understood in context with itself—what it sees itself doing with the larger and smaller parts, and how the entire system works as it does as a result. Even my choice of the word “system”: a metaphor, and metaphors very much impact the way we perceive and evaluate our world. (In fact, you will find that virtually every truly “big idea” in the world, in one way or another, is based on a metaphor: usually based on a very visual way of perceiving the world, rather fitting for human beings given the fact that our vision is 95% of “the world” for us, don’t you think? )Bottom line: While it has been sporadic, over this past month I think I have learned—and conceptually retained—more about computers than I have in a very long time. And I happen to know a little bit more about insurance as well, thanks to the first-rate textbook the company has on loan to me. Those pursuits aren’t very “humanitarian” as opposed to the topics I went to school for, so of course I spend less time thinking about the latter these days and more about the practicality of a life quite a ways removed from—but certainly affected by—the ivory tower. Don’t know if that’s good or bad—I notice my spelling and grammar beginning to suffer—but then again, I write love letters to a machine all day that, unlike a human being, is never irrational. The pleasant result? The irrationality of human beings begins to take on a new warmth, and I appreciate my appreciation of my fellow humans more, particularly in terms of genuinely enjoying just “hanging out.”  The only trade-off for me—and it’s a pretty big one—is that I’ve become a cyber-Borg geek.
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Monday, March 1, 2010 @ 10:41 PM
Oops. Thursday office rendezvous is this upcoming Thursday. My bad. |
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Hawk
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Arvada, CO Registered: Aug 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 805 |
Posted Thursday, March 4, 2010 @ 10:51 AM
I tried to post a new topic but the program would not take a subject line so I’ll put my comment here. What about Islam and, for that matter, what about Israel? It seems like people don’t want to say anything. Have you ever seen or heard of a people or religeous idealogy as committed to violence as Isalm? I mean, I’ve heard of Christians fighting each other and it’s been pretty bad… Ireland for example. I’ve never seen anything on the scale of Islam. They are killing each other on a massive world-wide scale. Their clerics don’t talk against it. In fact they often seem to be the source of it. The people don’t renounce it. They believe in it. I think it is said that about 80% of muslims support the idea that Israel does not have a right to exist, that they should be pushed into the sea. My goodness, the Muslims own about half the world over there; all of North Africa, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kazakistan, and Israel owns, like a drop in all that but they won’t give them that drop. If I were Israel I’d blow those guys out of the water and that’s reasonale and logical self-defense. Matter of fact, I think we ought to do it. I can be pretty easy going with some pretty rough characters but these guys are very much willing to die if it will only mean a bunch of us will die with them. I say let’s beat them to the punch. I mean it, we ought to attack now. If there are some that will renounce the violence against Israel, and against each other for that matter, I would befriend them but otherwise, it’s time to do the deed. This got stupid a long time ago. We’ve been molly coddling them just like Chamberlain did with Hitler. It’s time for a Churchill. I am not trying to be a flaming war monger. I’m just trying to look at the truth squarely in the eyes when our world seems to want to look down, point their toes in, and wiggle their feet. --------------------
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Friday, March 5, 2010 @ 00:31 AM
Well, let me get this straight. If the totality of Islamists are, as you say, blood-thirsty, and our response is to bathe them in blood, how are we different? But if, instead, you speak of eradicating the much smaller percentage of Muslims who are extremist, that is hardly Islam as a whole (whether we agree that such an act is morally justifiable or not). Seems like you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too a bit, though I think I do understand your ultimate point. So I’ll throw out some further fodder for thought by trying to get a handle on how things look from my perspective. While there may be political sense in trimming away the most radical of the radical as a surgeon might cancerous cells, I’m rather squeamish about the idea that it is somehow Godly that Israel—a people chosen by God—needs the United States to engage in a full-scale “preemptive strike” on their behalf and bathe the landscape with their enemy’s blood. I certainly am familiar with the passages in the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament in which the narrative (or its author(s)) attribute success in war as favor in God’s eyes and failure in war as being a sign of “sin in the camp.” However, those conceptions of God don’t seem to be those shared by Jesus. I mean, really: The story of the prodigal son, for starters. That’s hardly a story of great justice in any kind of militant sense of the word. Or what of Jesus’ teaching that God was our Heavenly Father with whom it is possible to share a mystic relationship established through prayer, resulting in transformations of our character, our vision, and our purpose, however subtle and ineffable. Now I don’t say you don’t have a point, Hawk. Max Weber, during the turbulent times when the world wasn’t sure how large the world-wide warfare would become, includes the following paragraph in his 1918 address at Munich University entitled Politics as a Vocation: (Note: I’ve taken the liberty to break the paragraph into smaller paragraphs for easier readability.) Quote: By the Sermon on the Mount, we mean the absolute ethic of the gospel, which is a more serious matter than those who are fond of quoting these commandments today believe. This ethic is no joking matter. The same holds for this ethic as has been said of causality in science: it is not a cab, which one can have stopped at one’s pleasure; it is all or nothing. This is precisely the meaning of the gospel, if trivialities are not to result. Hence, for instance, it was said of the wealthy young man, ‘He went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.’ The evangelist commandment, however, is unconditional and unambiguous: give what thou hast—absolutely everything. The politician will say that this is a socially senseless imposition as long as it is not carried out everywhere. Thus the politician upholds taxation, confiscatory taxation, out-right confiscation; in a word, compulsion and regulation for all. The ethical commandment, however, is not at all concerned about that, and this unconcern is its essence. Or, take the example, ‘turn the other cheek’: This command is unconditional and does not question the source of the other’s authority to strike. Except for a saint, it is an ethic of indignity. This is it: one must be saintly in everything; at least in intention, one must live like Jesus, the apostles, St. Francis, and their like. Then this ethic makes sense and expresses a kind of dignity; otherwise it does not. For if it is said, in line with the acosmic ethic of love, ‘Resist not him that is evil with force,’ for the politician the reverse proposition holds, ‘thou shalt resist evil by force,’ or else you are responsible for the evil winning out. … The pacifist who follows the gospel will refuse to bear arms or will throw them down; in Germany this was the recommended ethical duty to end the war and therewith all wars. The politician would say the only sure means to discredit the war for all foreseeable time would have been a status quo peace. Then the nations would have questioned, what was this war for? And then the war would have been argued ad absurdum, which is now impossible. For the victors, at least for part of them, the war will have been politically profitable. And the responsibility for this rests on behavior that made all resistance impossible for us. Now, as a result of the ethics of absolutism, when the period of exhaustion will have passed, the peace will be discredited, not the war. Weber, Max. Politics as a Vocation. Delivered in 1918, published in 1919. The politician may come to no other reasonable conclusion than that a Machiavellian sort of approach is most politically expedient, and therefore such a person is devoted to the so-called “ethics of politics” (my summarization, not his). And, naturally, such a politically savvy approach will look much different than that modeled by Jesus, the apostles, Saint Francis, or anyone else who exemplifies a cosmic-like nature, so totally “sold out” to their ethics that they achieve real dignity in such acts of non-violence, tolerance, and forgiveness of what others would call legitimate grievance. It’s not an easy question, really. But I do think, Hawk, you should not tie God, Israel, and war together. If you fight or declare the need to fight, it should be because you think that politically expedient, not because you think it will somehow be honoring to God. That’s at least my thoughts on the matter. I think we’re all guilty of oversimplifying things that we would have no way of fully understanding, and I’m not going to pretend to know what the best, most prudent course of action is. And not knowing, I certainly am not going to be raising the rallying flag and waving it boldly aloft.
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Hawk
Captain
Gender: Male
Location: Arvada, CO Registered: Aug 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 805 |
Posted Friday, March 5, 2010 @ 03:47 PM
I know I get bent out of shape now and then. I had been watching this muslim Mosque manager from Charolette NC. It was a radio interview but they had cameras in there too. In the end what came up is that the Mosque is being financed by terrorists. The guy made light of that so the DJ asked if he, the Mosque guy, had any membership or any such thing in the same terrorist organization. The guy refused to answer it. It really pissed me off. We let this guy walk around like he’s some innocent guy and we are probably friendly with him on the street but he will not deny that he belongs to an organization that wants to kill you and me. They did not accuse him. They just asked if he would say he was not a party to it. He wouldn’t even say it himself. Somebody do some research. What percentage of active Muslims will publicly renounce the terrorist organizations? I’m still pissed off. There reaches a point where you can kill somebody and still be innocent. Those who want to kill us, as well as the moderates who will not speak publicly against such things are bringing their own blood on their own shoulders. If you speak for death or even if you refuse to speak for peace, you bring it on yourself. No, killing them would not be like becoming one of them. I don’t need the Bible for these arguements. I do not believe that goodness is synonymous with passivity nor is Holiness synonymous with timidity. --------------------
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Saturday, March 6, 2010 @ 12:43 PM
Hawk, the problems could be solved in the Middle East over a weekend if everyone involved were reasonable, but, alas, that is not the case. Unfortunately, religion, passion, nationalism, resentment, vengeance, and all sorts of irrational behaviors combine to make it the intractable mess it is. If it is true that 80% of Muslims don’t believe Israel has a right to exist, I think it has might be a philosophical, rather than a political opinion. Israel is not viewed objectively…it is viewed symbolically. It represents Eurpean and American imperialism and the perceived decadent values we wish to impose on them, which they see as undermining their culture. In this sense, you might be able to relate to them because you, too, have expressed concern about homosexuality, promiscuity, feminism, and the erosion of family values in our own society. Political opinions are different than philosophical opinions. If you asked Christians if any country’s national government should prohibit females from going to school or allow polygamy, more than 95% would disagree with these laws. However, this does not mean that American Christians would endorse invading a country to rectify these injustices. They would recognize that we have to be pragmatic. However, philosophically, they would be opposed to these principles. When we read that 80% of Muslims do not believe Israel has a right to exist, we have to try and figure out the truth behind this statistic. Does it mean that 80% of Muslims would endorse a political decision to invade and destroy Israel? I think not. They have to be realistic, as well. I think it is much more likely that this statistic represents the anger Muslims feel about Europe and America meddling and dominating Middle Eastern politics for the last century. After all, World War I and II were European disputes that had significant and sometimes disastrous geo-political consequences for the Arabs, even though they were only indirect participants in the war. The Allies and the Axis Powers marched into their lands and dragged them into the conflict because they had the power to do so, and this was deeply resented and humiliating to the people whose countries were used so cavalierly. Then, afterwards, the creation of Israel at the expense of the Palestinians was seen as another injustice imposed by more powerful nations and an offense that was repeated over and over again because of our continued economic and military support of Israel. This, I suspect, is the reason most Arabs don’t believe Israel has the “right to exist”. Israel is seen as a country that was created by and protected by outsiders and settled mostly by displaced Europeans, not people indigenous to the area. Of course, this isn’t entirely fair and explains, but does not justify Arab hostility. However, when it comes to the Middle East, nothing is simple or fair. |
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