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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
     
 Posted Friday, November 9, 2007 @ 11:53 PM
Ignore god and live a happy normal life or try to draw near and be attacked???What the?? I was a guy who only tried to pray to god when things where so bad I thought it might help. I had not prayed for maybe even a year. Then I had such a horrible dream I decided to pray that I would not have one like it again. In doing so the thought crossed my mind that ” The egg didn’t have to be broken for it to grow” meaning to me I could come to god without being prompted by desperation or fear. Then I had read a post on this site titled”Sadhu Sundar Singh Darshana-The Divine Presence.In it were the words,our spirits live and grow in our human bodies much like the chick develops inside the egg. This to me confirmed my earlier thought and,made me think I must be on the right path. Later that night I began to make a myspace page.In doing so I was prompted to write down people I would like to meet.Nikola Tesla came to mind and a David Bowie song was my choice of music for the page. Upon finishing I realized I really would like to know more about Nikola.I googled him and ended up reading an article on Wikpedia. It was very interesting to me until I misread the meaning of part of a paragraph. Nikola Tesla is credited with new age occultism.After reading this I was starting to feel turned off and for some reason a little fear began to brew.This prompted me to scroll to the top of the page planning to exit the page.Before I reached the top I had a strong curriosity to examine his photograph. This gave me the creeps even more.I exited the site and began looking for pictures of David Bowie.I came across a picture of him with a small child on his lap that looked unsettled and he had a snake for an arm.By this point I almost have a sensation of some sort of evil.I attribute my thoughts to lack of sleep and turn my computer off.I think to myself I need to get my mind on something else.I flip on the tv and settle on a movie called “The Prestige”. It is about two majicians competing for status.Some lenth into the movie a man I thought was only a musician , David Bowie, is playing the role of Nikola Tesla!!! I am starting to form the theory in my warped mind that drawing near to god opens you up to attack. I actually got a good nights sleep and was feeling up to full mental capacity. I started to brush off my peviously formed theory. Just to feel more secure I decided to pray that no evil would be aloud to reside in my house” the physical one”. At that moment my breaker blows and the light went out in my room only. Yes I start wondering what the heck.I blow this off. Some days later I was at someone elses house and kind of felt like there was a depression or something unsettling about it.I pray again that no evil be aloud in this house.Right after this prayer, I had a song stuck in my head I was humming to myself and I was to the lyric in the song “The light comes through the bedroom window, and the light bulb blows!! Fluke maybe maybe not. I am not very bible literate and unfamiliar with most verses. I am wondering if there may be any that speak of this happening . Also if anyone else has had a similar occurrence regarding possible spiritual attack.I know this is kind of out there,but it is my only way of explaining these things so far. |
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sara
Major
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Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 10:29 AM
I’ve had a few freaky experiences similar to yours, but, in each case, it was either directly or indirectly linked to drug usage; twice with illegal drugs and once with a medication prescribed by my doctor for anxiety! So, the first thing we have to rule out is the possibility that the disturbing sequence of events you are describing aren’t a subjective response to either neutral events or perfectly normal coincidences. If drugs and medications are not a factor, then we next must consider fatigue, stress, anxiety, depression, or a sensitive/creative temperament that makes you susceptible to more intense fluctuations of emotion than average people. I think it is always best to start out with the simplest explanations before attributing these experiences to supernatural influences. If it IS something sinister, which I truly doubt, just keep in mind that God is the most powerful force in the Universe and if you seek shelter in His love and goodness, He will never abandon you. |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 10:43 AM
I agree with Sara. And just want to add consider your diet in the possibilities too. Too much sugar, alcohol, junk food - all this can lead to being low on essential nutrients that you need to think clearly, sleep, and have healthy stuff going on in your brain as well as the rest of your body. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 11:34 AM
Well I wan’t on any drugs, and have a healthy diet except for my lunch somtimes.I was fatigued during one of them. My first consideration was trying to come up with a logical or scientific explanation. It is probobly just coincidence as you say. However a strange few. Thank you for your thoughts. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 11:36 AM
How about that froidian slip lol. |
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sara
Major
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Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 01:48 PM
Well, it’s a good thing you expressed your feelings to someone because when we don’t, it often intensifies our anxieties. The problem is…sometimes…knowing with whom to share our concerns. Often how people respond to a situation reveals a lot more about their perception of reality, then it does about the reality of the situation itself. I think it was wise of you to go to a Christian website that appeals to people with diverse viewpoints. That way, you’ll get a few different opinions, which you can then evaluate and apply to your own problems. Let us know how you’re doing. I guarantee that we have all had our own share of freak-outs, drug induced and otherwise, and most of us understand how awful it feels when you’re going through it. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 05:34 PM
The purpose of my post was not primarily to share my feelings. I understand the immediate thoughts you have about whether or not I am of sound mind. This would be my first response as well most likely. Upon further research into the happenings, I realized the term occult in the context it was used meant one who combines traditional religious beliefs with new age ideas also pertaining to hidden knowledge .In first reading it , I took occult to mean pertaining to immoral practices or evil. The picture of David Bowie that gave me a similar feeling was just a photo of him dressed as a character he played in a movie. My thoughts afterwords where that they were just tools to create a fear. The instance of David Bowie playing the character of Nikola Tesla in the movie another tool. It made me wonder what two men very dissimilar from different time periods have in common and what are the odds they would be as one. The chances of this happening is what made me start to think it may have been spiritual. That is also what made me wonder if drawing near to god may be met with some resistance. This is not a belief of mine but a curiosity. I was asking in my initial comment if the bible made mention of it or if any other people may have had a similar occurrence of resistance when drawing near to god. Another thing that started me in this line of thinking is mathew7:13–14 narrow is the road and there are few that find it. Why would there be few that find it? Millions of people no the way. Millions have been saved.All you have to do is believe and profess his name. So why would the road be narrow and FEW find it? |
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sara
Major
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Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 06:18 PM
Neither the Bible nor the Occult are within my range of expertise, so I will leave these questions for someone else to answer. However, I do recall Jesus saying somewhere in the Bible that “Not everyone who says “Lord Lord” will enter the Kingdom”. I think salvation may be a little more complicated than just saying you believe in Jesus. Your whole life has to change, no? If it doesn’t ,then, you are either deceiving yourself or God. Also, please understand that I wasn’t implying you were not of sound mind. Many good solid folks have times of anxiety and/or depression. As for the drug question, I was speaking from my own experience. In my youth, I was especially fond of smoking grass, and I didn’t realize intil many years later how it can subtly changes your consciousness ….when you aren’t high as well as when you are. I saw that movie The Prestige and, though I thought it was excellent, it was certainly dark and a bit creepy. If you were feeling a little off-balance that day, it’s not surprising you were unsettled by it. The resistence question is an interesting one, but I don’t feel qualified to answer it because I know very little about the Occult & Satanic influences & stuff like that. I know evil exists, but I don’t empower it by thinking about it. I have always tried to keep my focus on the good and beautiful, and trust that love is the most powerful force that exists in the Universe. As A. N. Whitehead said, “The fact of the instability of evil is the moral order of the world.” |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 07:11 PM
No doubt I was feeling some anxiety or in my words sensation of fear. The question is why and what was causeing it. I don’t think evil needs any of our ok for it to have power or to give it thought. If something happens right in front of your eyes you suspect could be evil and unexplainable it happens .I didn’t ask for this to happen it just did. If your carpet suddenly catches fire it is not because you where worried it might. As for the movie I enjoyed it aswell. It wasn’t the movie it could have been your cat saying verbally you will die soon. It isn’t the cat that might be evil the cat is only a tool used.I kind of got off track with my initial intentions with the story. It was just meant to give an example of what I meant by resistance. I suppose the resistance could have just as easily been a temptation to do something that convicts your spirit. I don’t think you have to know about the occult or evil to have possibly experienced it. I am ignorant to the occult myself. The fact that you say you have not had an experience like this unless under an influence helps to answer my question of resistance being true or common. |
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Admin
General
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Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Saturday, November 10, 2007 @ 10:47 PM
Hi, Painter. I read your first post this morning, but didn’t have a chance to reply. I wanted to say, though, that you will most definitely want to check out this week’s newsletter Heaven and Earth: Flow, Synchronicity, and Thin Places. Not only does it link to your post here, but it talks about some ideas that you might find go hand in hand with what you’re talking about: not about evil, but about weird coincidences and unusual frames of mind. It’s pretty long though: longer than usual, so beware. On that note, I’d write more here, but I’ve been working on it most of the day (and a manuscript of student writing earlier this week), so I’m not feeling the most “chatty” at the moment. (lol) Further, I have to turn around and write an encyclopedia entry now on Confucius for class. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Sunday, November 11, 2007 @ 01:11 AM
Admin,Beautiful…in fact a lot was over my head. This premonition or flow you speak of to me could also possibly be guidance or communication. I agree with the “without order the spiritual life becomes a waste of time.” However who sets the order..”set roles for ourselves.” I think follow may be more correct. ” reduced to a monkey …love that one…even a monkey knows to follow the bananas scent, and not order things ourselves or make our own map that may lead us far away from the banana. In this I mean listening to the premonition or flow. Seek and ye shall find…not be idol and make your own map.” If we do we will lose ourselves” this to me is spiritual transformation..you may have meant loose our sanity which I agree is very dangerous. To not weigh these so called premonitions. I think you can weigh them by the fruit they produce as with my Tesla coincidence. At the end of your piece you mention you are writing of flow and where assigned to write about Confucius. This reminded me of the famous footprints poster…there where only one set of footprints because I was carrying you…I think you may have been being prepared. This is all just my opinion and things I suspect. I don’t mean to sound so absolute as if I know. It is all things that lead to theory. As my experience leads to a possible theory not yet proven either way. This is seeking to me though to try to know through previous experience to try to find some truth. |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Sunday, November 11, 2007 @ 11:12 AM
Admittedly, I am reading quickly, but it seems to me in perusing your posts here, Painter, that what you are looking for are solid black lines, solid boundaries that say “this is the way, walk in it…..don’t look to the right or the left.” I could be wrong, but it reminds me of how it used to be for me - always looking for the “right” religion, the “right” answer, the “right” concept of God. In some things, no harm is done to think that way. For instance - don’t even think about killing or stealing. (and a debate about ethics would certainly help blur the lines - what about stealing from the rich to feed the poor? what about wars or self-defense?) But God is not so rigid that he demands these solid lines around us in every area, as though we are prisoners in a locked cell, our minds and wills held captive in a sealed box. It is normal to have intuition. There is something “supernatural” about intuition, but that does not make it evil. The same mechanism that makes it possible for us to have intuition is the one that makes it possible for God to communicate with us at all. Yes, test the spirits and prove all things. That takes some thinking, not a knee-jerk response based on some verse we were taught to respond to in a certain way, as many of us have been taught in the past. The Bible is inspired in many areas. It is also peppered and even sullied by the fingerprints of man. God does not want us to keep him in a box within our own minds, nor does he keep us in a box, demanding we not think past what we’ve been taught to think. I have been in the Mormon church and the Charismatic churches. Both taught me to see verses of the bible through their own interpretations. Both demanded that I think along one line and one line only, with dire consequences from God promised if I didn’t think that way. I have since found that God is not so rigid, and not nearly as demanding as religion. As for evil spirits, if they are out there, they do not bother me. I focus on cause and effect in life now; when things go badly, what is my own responsibility in that? And if I did nothing wrong, and they still went against me, then I trust God to fix it for me, to bring good out of evil. There was a time when I blamed evil spirits for everything that went wrong. I have seen many, many people do that. After all, we were taught, doesn’t God want us to prosper? Well, if we aren’t prospering, an evil spirit must be resisting us, persecuting us. I have seen this kind of thinking lead to mental imbalance, or exacerbate pre-existing mental imbalance. It is best to look at what is our responsibility, and what isn’t. It is good to look at the serenity prayer. Some things we can’t control, or change. Sometimes our lives will be turned upside down because of someone else’s actions against us that were entirely unfair. In those cases, I turn it over to God, trusting that he knows how to bring about better things in my life, to guide me into better things. As for the newsletter, I thought it was a very interesting subject, and one that I relate to. I have often experienced intuition, and as Eric pointed out, sometimes that intuition has been wrong but other times it has been right. I think the concept of flow is one that makes a lot of sense. Just as the heart beats each second (or more or less) through mechanisms set in place that usually need no intervention on our part, so the universe is also set in motion and the forces of life go on about their business without our having to think of how to make them happen. In that process, those who are receptive to “bumping into the thin veil that separates the seen from the unseen” can indeed pick up things through “intuition” while others who are less perceptive, or less open will not. |
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Sunday, November 11, 2007 @ 12:45 PM
Karen, never never again suggest that you are dissatisfied with your own style of writing because what you wrote and how you said it was wonderful! Sometimes Eric drowns in words & I try to be too cute, but you are always simple & direct & ususally right on target. Now, I might be the one of the few people in the world who admits to lacking intuition, but I don’t seems to have it. It might be there somewhere in my right brain, but my left brain is so dominant and show-offy, that the right brain has almost atrophied. However, God always manages to communicate with me when he finds it necessary, and sometimes in strange and incredible ways. For instance, once when I was going through a horrible bout of insomnia which had lasted several days, I decided to pray in a reclining position. It suddenly occurred to me that this might be rude to God. All the religious teachers I had read from both East and West, insisted that prayer should be performed with full alertness. Lying down while praying seemed to contradict their instructions. In retrospect, this seems silly, but, come on…I hadn’t slept for days! Even my left brain wasn’t logical. Anyway, I prayed to God to forgive me for being impolite, went on with my prayer, and promptly forgot about it. Two days later I impulsively stopped into a used bookstore and stumbled across this book written about a man who prayed while lying down. Strange, eh? He, too, had insomnia, and the book turned out to be extremely sweet and helpful. Another quick story. I thought I might like to join a Catholic Reading Group which was held in a Catholic bookstore, but when I went to the store and looked in the window, all I saw were beatific portraits of the Virgin Mary and various saints being burned at the stake and a huge picture of Jesus with knives in his heart. I instinctively recoiled and said, “This is not for me, God. If you want me to join this group, you better be explicit.” Then I went to a Borders bookstore. When I was in there (admittedly the religious section), a man came up to me and asked “Do you have any idea where a Catholic bookstore is?” I not only told him, I showed him the way, joined the book group and met marvelous people who changed my life.” So I do believe in synchronicity, etc. but, like Karen, I have met too many people who simply go overboard and become superstitious and entirely too suggestible. As a matter of fact, when I worked with mentally ill people, many of them had developed obsessions and compulsions dealing with Satanic influences and/or God’s very stern approval and disapproval of their thoughts and behaviors. That’s why I responded to Painter1013’s comments as I did. I sensed he was troubled by what had occurred and wanted to reassure him. Now I understand that he was being more philosophical than fearful. One more thing, and this really amuses me, Eric. Soon after my diatribe against New Agers, a woman moved into our upstairs apartment that we rent in our house. Turns out she hopes to write a book about God and Quantum Physics and Flow. Wanting to be polite and knowledgeable, I decided to explore Deepak Chopra and friends, and to my extreme irritation, discovered that his latest book was not only lovely, but logically consistent, in an Eastern-thinking sort of way. Apparently, the Universe corrected me again, which it seems to do every time I get really opinionated about something. But then….. this morning! I opened my e-mail and was astonished to find out that Le Penseur Reflechit was all about “Flow, Synchronicity and Thin Places” Boggles my mind…both halves! Question: Had you decided to write on this theme before or after reading Painter1013? You refer to him in the Newsletter, but it seemed to me that you had to have already selected your subject, no? Whatever. It is all so cool. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Sunday, November 11, 2007 @ 01:23 PM
I agree with you Karen. However I do believe one thing is black and white and that is truth and falsehood. I don’t think god demands anything. That is why we have free will. As for blaming evil spirits I don’t think in that way. I do think you can listen to the wrong voice and in doing this yes it is our own fault. Not the fault of the thought itself. My last post has to do with messages falling on deaf ears. If you feel a strong feeling that you need to help someone for instance give someone a ride. If you do you may find out that person is on the way to the hospital to say good by to a family member. If you don’t and you start to feel guilty about it for no apparent reason this guilt may be intuition. As you say some times it is wrong. If you don’t follow the bananas scent so to speak to find out in my opinion this is being idol. It is so funny that at first it seems no one has had an occurrence with resistance intuition or the like. My thought at the time was maybe people are afraid to write about this matter for fear of the opinions of others about their mental state. This would be a resistance to me stopping truth from spewing out. It is so funny that it seems to be actually happening in the search to find if it is real. My question has been answered in full . Thank you all so much for your participation. |
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Admin
General
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Posted Sunday, November 11, 2007 @ 01:26 PM
Karen, your words are beautiful and true: I’ll have to scrape your post and use that for my next newsletter.  To answer your question about writing the newsletter, I have had the idea of flow in mind all along. I am not sure how long after I sent the last newsletter, but not long after. And I kind of regret in some ways my tone about the New Age in our prior post. The big thing really is that these ideas have ancient roots and are most poignant in their natural surroundings. For example, Native Americans have a beautiful religion and I have a deep respect for their ways. I do not always, however, have a deep respect for the ways at times that a lot of New Age authors have “subverted” these ideas, turning them into a consumer product catering to narcissistic desires. That is not to say that spiritual practices do not have to continually be reborn and reembodied, but it is to say that “there are those and then there are those.” I am drawn to the organic and natural, hence why the beatitudes resound so powerfully with me. |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Sunday, November 11, 2007 @ 02:05 PM
First, thank you for your kind words. Sarah, maybe it is inspiration or intuition you get without knowing it, but whenever I have a near miss coming through a door or around a corner (something that happens countless times a day in any given hospital I’m in) I have to smile at the “perfect timing” involved there. One fraction of a second either way, and someone would’ve gotten hurt. That’s how I see flow. Painter: I guess I don’t really understand what answer you were looking for or where you found it. Could you elaborate? Eric: In reading your post on the New Age and Native American beliefs in their own places, and how so much of both - like Christianity - has been made no more than a consumer commodity - yeah, I can only agree with that. But as we have said time and time again - truth is what it is and it can be found in many places. In Christianity, in New Age, in Buddhism, in the Tao, in the words of one another, in all nature around us, in the lilt of a Celtic voice, in the flicker of a candle on the altar. I keep my “black line of truth” very simple. God is. Jesus is. All the rest is doctrine. |
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sara
Major
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Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Sunday, November 11, 2007 @ 02:48 PM
Karen, you might be right. Maybe I have intuition because I am an incredibly bad driver and I have many near misses all the time. My mind is seldom with me on the road. Either that, or my guardian angels are real pros. 
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Sunday, November 11, 2007 @ 02:59 PM
Karen, My question was does resistance exist outside my own head.Have others had similar experiences with intuition and a ordered plan. I have viewed similar descriptions in Saras story also in Erics coincidences. Also someone had said intuition may be of a spiritual nature. I was thinking this may be a form of communication. You could say it only proves we have a conscience but I think it goes beyond that due to the synch. or order that seems to come with it. What is gods voice? This may be a way of hearing.Not to say it is the only way. |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Sunday, November 11, 2007 @ 03:38 PM
Thanks for the clarification. Sara, I have so many near misses on the road too, I think you’re right. Although I attribute it a lot to my vigilant angels as well. I can’t count how many times I decided at the last milisecond not to switch lanes, just to have a car whiz by me where we would’ve hit. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Monday, November 12, 2007 @ 04:46 PM
I remembered another coincidence that happened to me about a year or so ago. I was at a weird point in my feelings on god and religious speakers who would go off on a tangent with what to me seemed to be complete lunacy. I was riding in a car stewing or just being angry in general , close to the point of disbelief in god altogether. Pretty much fed up with the whole of religion. I had recently watched a video that is still on Youtube if you wish to watch it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4 …if this doesn’t go to the video type in the search Kirk Cameron and Bananas …or Proof of god with a banana?. This crocodile hunter really bothered me lol. Anyway while in the car I began to talk about this video trying to make the point of how moronic this guy was and remember not getting much in the way of an agreeing response. This didn’t help my perturbed state of mind. We stop at this gas station and walk in and there are a very large quantity of bananas just sitting on a table by the coffee machine. There may have been a guy loading them onto the table i can’t remember. I have never seen bananas at a gas station in my life. It kind of felt like god was slapping me in the face, maybe just saying I am too here stupid. lol |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Monday, November 12, 2007 @ 07:16 PM
I’ve noticed a trend the past few years with gas station stores selling fresh fruit as an alternative, or complement, to all the quick-bite junk to be had on their shelves. I’ve never been impressed with Kirk Cameron myself. I find him annoying, and his logic escapes me. Lots of, as Greg said, canned religious responses. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Monday, November 12, 2007 @ 07:52 PM
Well I think in my mind it may have also been reminding me what you due unto the least of my followers you due unto me. Yes this is a canned response so to speak but may be true. Fruit being common is new to me but was significant to me personally due to my thoughts at the time. This may be as far from a religious experience as putting on your clothes. However nothing has lead me to think as of yet anyway , that these coincidences aren’t possible communication. I think there are coincidences that have absolutely nothing to due with god communicating. Perhaps all are , but for me that is left to be dicovered. |
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karen
First Sergeant
Gender: Unspecified
Location: US Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 209 |
Posted Monday, November 12, 2007 @ 08:20 PM
I agree. Personally, I don’t see every coincidence as God speaking, but I do believe there are times it is. |
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sara
Major
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Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Monday, November 12, 2007 @ 09:58 PM
Well, I never heard of Kirk Cameron, so I Googled and ended up on that Youtube video about him and the banana. Your instincts were right, Painter1013…the guy is a moron. Maybe a good-willed moron, but a moron nonetheless. Or maybe he’s not a moron. Maybe it is a shrewd career move. I have no idea. However, I’m pretty sure the bananas you encountered in the gas station were a coincidence. If not, maybe God was slapping you in the face and saying, “Don’t be an idiot like that guy Kirk Cameron with his stupid banana comments.” Perhaps you have a guilty conscience. Have you strayed from the faith of your childhood and not come to terms with it? Either that, or you emotionally yearn for God, but need to be coaxed or convinced in some way. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
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Posted Monday, November 12, 2007 @ 11:07 PM
Good willed moron I think are the key words. I think what bothered me is the never ending debate of scientific understanding and the Creationist stance. I think they both mesh together evolution I believe has been proven in part very well . I also believe in god. Also the speaking in absolutes as most Believers due without the proof of the evolutionists tends to discredit them. Well religion was kind of shoved down my throat as a kid. Yes I’ve strayed but only to come back to some of the beliefs that where pressed on me. I yearn for god yes. And I must be the most skeptical person alive as far as being convinced. I have come to very few beliefs. I guess I’ve just learned to think for myself more. I’m am interested in how it all works , God , the universe etc. There is so much conforming in both circles adopting belief without trying to do any actual research yourself. I conform to an extent to social norms because it helps me to do so. I just think conforming intellectually is unsafe not saying you shouldn’t learn from the successful. |
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Admin
General
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Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Monday, November 12, 2007 @ 11:30 PM
If you yearn for God but have a hard time swallowing a lot of what you are expected to believe about Christianity, it strikes me that you found a pretty good site to hang out on for a while. Anyway, about that YouTube video: well, I am not going to say that Kirk Cameron is an idiot (it wasn’t him doing the talking anyway). But what I will say is that it is very difficult to take that sort of thing seriously, and if I didn’t know better, I would think it was somebody’s idea of a bad joke. (Unfortunately, I am afraid it isn’t.) What it reminded me of was Voltaire’s novel Candide. There is a person named Dr. Pangloss, and I found a scholarly article that translated the French into the English below (we had to read it in French): Quote: Pangloss was professor of metaphysico-theologo-cosmolo-nigology. He could prove most admirably, that there is no effect without a cause, and that in this world, the best of all possible worlds, the baron’s castle was the most magnificent of castles, and his lady the best of baronesses that could possibly exist. It is demonstrable, said he, that things cannot be otherwise than as they are: for all things having been created for some end, they must consequently be created for the best. Observe, that the nose is formed for spectacles, and therefore we come to wear spectacles. The legs are visibly designed for stockings, and therefore we come to wear stockings. Stones were made to be hewn, and to construct castles; therefore my lord has a magnificent castle: for the greatest baron in the province ought to be the best lodged. Swine were intended to be eat; therefore we eat pork all the year round; and they who assert, that every thing is right, do not express themselves correctly; they should say that every thing is for the best. It is commonly believed that Voltaire was ridiculing a philosopher named Leibniz, who I can assure you was a thousand times more sophisticated in his arguments than that YouTube Video you cite. And I noticed in reading the first page of comments that somebody else immediately thought of Voltaire as well. It is no wonder you were feeling out of sorts. |
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cferraro
Master Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: Custer, SD Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 125 |
Posted Tuesday, November 13, 2007 @ 02:03 PM
It is interesting that humanity has put God in a box, including me. As far as situations where you have near misses. I was in a vehicle where we were driving down a very snowy and icy interstate road when my dad lost control of the SUV we were in. Now, when I mean lost control, I mean he threw up his hands in the air and screamed. We were heading strait for a cement divider wall, and from what I remember from Newton’s laws, “objects in motion tend to stay in motion unless act upon by an outside force” we should have eaten cement that day. That is not what happened though. Instead, a second later, the vehicle moved to the center of the lane and began to cruise down the road at a normal rate. By the mercy of God, we did not hit that wall. In fact, I remember a sudden calm that came over me, and I knew that either the wall had to move, or the road did because I knew nothing bad at that moment was going to happen. Now, was that voice God? I’d say yes, but can I explain it? No. As far as bad dreams, I am plagued by them, at least once a week, sometimes more often. Last night I dreamed that I was in my classroom full of kids who I didn’t know, and they were all acting out, and generally being rude. I ended up having to take one of them to the ground (I work at a corrections facility) and then the class completely rebelled and left. Strange because I really love my classes and where I work. I also dreamed that I was being chased by a Bison that was attempting to make me part of the pavement. Not a happy experience, and now you Freudians out there can psychoanalyze me. I’m sure to be really screwed up. :) --------------------
Expectation is the Hindrance of Learning |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Tuesday, November 13, 2007 @ 07:00 PM
Do I agree with Voltaires logic more then Pangloss. Panglosses logic irritates me. If you had not been kicked out of the castle ,thrown into the inquisition you would not be here to eat citrons and pistachios. You could easily have remained in the castle and some days later have partaken in citrons and pistachios. However not sure if the flawed logic makes it really untrue. Kirk Cameron’s claim to the banana was flawed to me. The banana has been cultivated over years and years and was quite different looking originally. Even though his logic was flawed I still get the slap in the face maybe saying he is a follower of mine. Gods will ultimately will be done, so the world is good. Kirk said ” We live in a fallen earth.” He was speaking of the sin of Adam and Eve and saying this is why the world is bad sometimes. Would you be ignorant to ever pray anything other then ..God may your will be done? How can you assume you know better then him? “It wasn’t him talking anyway.” Admin. Does god have perfect logic? That would make me say no way in heck it was god speaking. I get slapped though. It may not have had to been god speaking through Kirk if Kirks intentions where for god. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Tuesday, November 13, 2007 @ 07:04 PM
Cferrano, thanks for telling your story. I wonder if God gets jealous. You don’t talk to him so he cracks you on the head with a bad dream or something to get you to talk to him. lol |
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Tuesday, November 13, 2007 @ 07:19 PM
I don’t want to be scared into believing in God, although I suppose it happens. More often, I think He responds to our yearning to love and be loved. |
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Tuesday, November 13, 2007 @ 07:25 PM
One more thing, Painter. The way we conceptualize God is often influenced by how we relate to our human fathers. By any chance, in your childhood, did your dad give you a smack (verbal or otherwise) whenever you were naughty? Just curious. You seem sort of guilt-ridden. No offense. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Tuesday, November 13, 2007 @ 07:33 PM
Well that may explain it. In my SINCERE wanting to know if god exists I prayed for it to be proven even if it was through the witnessing existence of pure evil. I came to one hundred percent faith and still had instance of what I thought to be evil. Maybe he does consider what we want. I don’t know you could very well be right. At least he responds. Well yes I was smacked a time or two. I think I am more curious about how god works. Yes I started to feel some guilt after the banana and kirk incident. Thinking I may have ridiculed a follower. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Tuesday, November 13, 2007 @ 10:09 PM
Here is some logic for you. A little science 101.”That is, a proton and an electron will attract each other. The closer they are together, the stronger this attraction will be. Two protons (or two electrons) will repel each other. And again, the closer together they are, the stronger the repulsion. Now the nucleus of an atom is positively charged, while electrons are negatively charged. As a result, a nucleus will attract electrons. These electrons will swarm around the nucleus, and the result is an atom. Now we haven’t explained everything yet. The electric force explains how the electrons are bound to the nucleus of an atom. But we haven’t said anything about what holds the nucleus together. The electric force can’t account for this, and in fact, the electric force actually works against holding the nucleus together. Remember, the nucleus contains neutrons and protons. The neutrons are electrically neutral, and so the electric force won’t hold them in. Furthermore, the protons are all positively charged, and so they all repel each other. So if the electric force was the only force involved, you couldn’t create a nucleus. You could try to push all those protons and neutrons together, but as soon as you let go, the protons would all shoot away from each other, and the neutrons would drift apart as well. There has to be some other force that holds protons and neutrons together.” This force is named the strong force and I think is invisible.No one has seen the father.??? |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Tuesday, November 13, 2007 @ 10:22 PM
Or is it Jesus that holds all things together? |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Tuesday, November 13, 2007 @ 10:31 PM
I tried finding this in Genesis. There are about fifty different versions. |
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Admin
General
Gender: Male
Location: USA Registered: Jan 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 810 |
Posted Tuesday, November 13, 2007 @ 11:22 PM
As far as your question about God and logic, Painter, if anybody has perfect logic, it would be God. But I think there is far more to the world than logic, and what is more, I think God generally operates according to a different standard that transcends the merely cerebral. I would relate a parable the Sadhu tells (I’ve posted it on another post someplace, but on this forum these days, things get buried pretty quick. Then too, it is part of the very newsletter you mention in one of your own opening posts.) Quote: Seeker: So how do I find the path to spiritual truth and to knowledge of God? Sadhu: God never discourages a seeker by judging his or her beliefs to be wrong. Rather, God allows each person to recognize spiritual error or truth by degrees. The story is told of a poor grass cutter who found a beautiful stone in the jungle. He had often heard of people finding valuable diamonds and thought this must be one. He took it to a jeweler and showed it to him with delight. Being a kind and sympathetic man, the jeweler knew that if he bluntly told the grass cutter that his stone was worthless glass, the man would either refuse to believe it or else fall into a state of depression. So instead, the jeweler offered the grass cutter some work in his shop so that he might become better acquainted with precious stones and their value. (Darshana • The Divine Presence] I can give your dream a shot, Chuck, if you’d like, though I need to put some heavy-duty disclaimers in here first as well as a pair of links to dig deeper. First, dreams are very personal and second, they communicate to us most often in an emotional language. The actual content of the dream is not as important as the way the content makes us feel, or, put differently, we all have a repertoire of personal symbols built up knit of our previous experience. As the first link indicates that I wrote back in 2000 (entitled The Validity of Reincarnation: A query into the various aspects of past lives), there are several personal symbols that show up in my dreams: using drugs, my ex-wife, and the first girl that I had a serious romantic attraction toward as well as a serious friendship (so my first serious—non-“puppy-love” attraction): she was my best friend, a factor which will help explain why she has become such a powerful symbol because I believe the best marriages are generally predicated on friendships as well as sexual/physical attraction. Whenever I am feeling sinful and guilty, the drugs show up. Whenever I am engaged in a romantic attraction and feeling hopeless about it, my ex-wife shows up as a symbol of the utter finality of lost dreams. When I am newly interested romantically, my best friend and first real interest shows up in my dreams. I have learned these symbols by heart: doing drugs left a profound impact on me, intensifying the hopelessness and self-disgust that I felt, dealing with divorce and the remarriage of my wife was like living through a death and every bit as final, and my first real interest and friendship corresponds to those deep and intimate longings my cynical self would prefer to forget as a means of self-protection. I know that there is no such things as perfect relationships, but I also know that there can be deep and authentic ones that have a certain comfortable familiarity—and mystery—to them and if I spent much more time trying to explain in words alone, the words would simply fall down around my ears, failing hopelessly and making me look like a fool. Of all the types of honesty that are most difficult, emotional honesty is chief among them. We often are out of touch with our true feelings and we have a hard time a lot of times being emotionally honest with ourselves, much less anybody else. But sometimes that is why spilling out guts to a complete stranger can be liberating: we probably won’t have to see him or her again and thus are freed. Likewise, posting on a forum sometimes creates enough distance we can be candid as we couldn’t with face-to-face encounters. The second link is an archived forum post on dreams that should also interest you: Re (1): truth & dreams; in fact, though it is not really a new link but a continuation of it which you can access by following the breadcrumb trail of links at the bottom of the posts, there is a second link that may also tie into your recent dream: Re (2): truth & dreams: it talks about how dreams seek to unstick us and the reason why we sometimes have repetitious and even recurring dreams. Anyway, about your dream: Last night I dreamed that I was in my classroom full of kids who I didn’t know, and they were all acting out, and generally being rude. I ended up having to take one of them to the ground (I work at a corrections facility) and then the class completely rebelled and left. I would propose at least two different possible interpretations to this dream: you recently moved to S. Dakota and are still getting acclimated to your new job, though you have taught high school before and no doubt had to deal with a bit of insubordination from time to time. You mailed me a bit ago and told me that while most of your charges are generally well-behaved, one or two stress you a bit. The fact that it is an all-female correctional facility no doubt also adds its own unique element. And like all of us, you sometimes struggle with feelings of being a “phony” or “fraud” and the recent rounds you’ve spent on the discussion forum wrangling over biblical innerancy no doubt further exacerbate such insecurities: you have been rather “going it alone” there, and that must rattle your cage a bit. Put differently, you don’t always feel like your life has such great meaning or purpose, you doubt yourself sometimes, and to some degree—like (most) males especially, myself included—you seek a sense of self-affirmation in your work and in a job well done with competence. Then too, your wife loves you, but she doesn’t always know how to support you (just like you didn’t always know how to really listen to her), and her tendency toward anti-intellectualism runs contrary to your deep desire to learn and strengthen your mind intellectually. (You would never have become a teacher if this were not true.) And as for being chased by Bisons, that sounds like a dream’s way of telling you that you’ve been building up a much higher amperage of anxiety than you might even have realized. It is attempting to release some of that pent-up and probably even unrecognized anxiety. These interpretations are not failproof, of course, but if you look to emotional explanations, I believe you will gain a real and increased insight into why you dreamt what you dreamt. You might also find that the weird events are also emotional symbols as well. Up to you, but I would be curious to know just how close I have come to “peeking through your curtains.” |
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sara
Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Feb 2006 Status: Offline Posts: 1253 |
Posted Wednesday, November 14, 2007 @ 07:48 AM
Your observations about the symbols of dreams seem quite accurate to me, Eric. Something fascinating happened to me this year. I had three old boyfriends before I married. The first was sweet and stable and loved me completely, so, of course, I dumped him because I was 19 and looking for excitement. I always dream of him when I’m feeling insecure because he represents lost stability. The second was the man of my dreams—the best & the brightest, a writer who wrote wonderful stories, handsome, a little aloof (which made him more attractive) and I fell ardently and passionately in love with him, and, of course, he dumped me because I he found someone better. I dream of this guy whenever I’m bored or at odds with my husband. The dream is always the same….my lost love pops into my life and I run away with him, and always realize…too late…that I made a mistake. The third guy was a crazy, alcoholic professor of English, who I never dream about at all because I knew why I was with him and the relationship ended amicably. So, anyway…the interesting part of the story is that, this year, both boyfriend #1 and boyfriend #2 contacted me on the Internet, then telephoned. So strange! I know all about their lives and I’ve become quite friendly with them and we chitchat every now and then. However, I still continue to dream of them as the people they once were, but now, within the dream, I suddenly realize “This is all an illusion!” and I wake up. |
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cferraro
Master Sergeant
Gender: Male
Location: Custer, SD Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 125 |
Posted Wednesday, November 14, 2007 @ 07:59 AM
I must say Eric, that after reflecting on your thoughts, I believe that there is much validity to what you say. Particularly in the portion concerning my anxious thoughts about my job. It is the type of job that is nor will ever be settled. Working at a correctional facility, we have students coming and going every week. Many of the students who enter our program are defiant, “don’t care”, lie, steal, front, and in many other ways, show their total lack of regard…not that I really expect it any more, but as I said, it is the type of job that is never really settled. There might be a settled day or two, and then something happens to set everyone on edge. As for my wife and I, relationships are not in a vacuum as you know. Ours has for the last 2 years been on a positive swing, and I hope that we continue in this direction. Not hope…let’s see, when we spend more time together, then our relationship grows, and we have been spending much more time together over the last 5 years, talking, lots of time talking and listening. Finally, I do agree that a man’s sense of worth is sinewed with his ability to create wealth and “bring home the bacon”. My job as a teacher doesn’t pay particularly well, as most people know. It does put food on the table, and with my wife also teaching, we have enough to save…yet there is that still, constant yearning to be better, make more, (not have more), which I know is putting trust in money where my trust should never lie. It is something I have been dealing with since I realized money didn’t grow on trees, sometime after I got married. :) --------------------
Expectation is the Hindrance of Learning |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Wednesday, November 14, 2007 @ 08:46 AM
You may be right that God can not be proven. I don’t think it would cheapen him to be proven. I could be wrong as I have been many times before. I think to prove gods existence to a non believer would be a great step to glorify god. How would it not please him to lead someone to him. I am not asking this question to you but to show why I feel this way. |
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Painter1013
Sergeant Major
Gender: Unspecified
Location: Registered: Nov 2007 Status: Offline Posts: 390 |
Posted Wednesday, November 14, 2007 @ 09:09 AM
Cferrano, I think Admin. is possibly right on your dream. I have had two dreams that I can remember where I actually gained control or awareness. This has happened extremely few times . You seem to dream more often than me though having more chances for you to become aware . If you can pull it off next time your being chased turn around and confront your pursuer and ask why are you chasing me. |
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