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Re (5): Wise Guys
IP: 146.7.17.100
Posted on May 29, 2005 at 12:27:18 PM by karen
I wanted to do some further research on this idea of God's will being involved in the Fall and if not, why not; if so, why so? I've tried to glean from a variety of resources.
I did not find anything particularly helpful in my cursory skimming of The Faith of the Early Fathers, or The Apostolic Fathers, that might have answered the question regarding God's will in the Fall of Adam, which was disappointing. Nor did I find anything especially enlightening in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. However, the Catholic Encyclopedia talks about it being "freely committed by our first parents..." And "The doctrine of the fall accounts for the cause of human suffering, evil, and death without making God their cause."
The views on this seem to vary widely, and I think these are all worth looking at.
The first one I read online was from RC Sproul, discussing the Calvinistic view of predestination in light of the Fall. However, I think our definition of predestination may need clarifying, so I included the paragraph that addressed that:
http://www.the-highway.com/fall_Sproul.html
It is also vital to see predestination in light of the Fall. All Christians agree that God's decree of predestination was made before the Fall. Some argue that God first predestinated some people to salvation and others to damnation and then decreed the Fall to make sure that some folks would perish. Sometimes this dreadful view is even attributed to Calvinism. Such an idea was repugnant to Calvin and is equally repugnant to all orthodox Calvinists.
The notion is sometimes called "hyper-Calvinism." But even that is an insult. This view has nothing to do with Calvinism. Rather than hyper-Calvinism, it is anti-Calvinism.
Calvinism, along with other views of predestination, teaches that God's decree was made both before the Fall, and in light of the Fall. Why is this important? Because the Calvinistic view of predestination always accents the gracious character of God's redemption. When God predestines people to salvation he is predestinating people to be saved whom he knows really need to be saved. They need to be saved because they are sinners in Adam, not because he forced them to be sinners. Calvinism sees Adam sinning by his own free will, not by divine coercion.
To be sure, God knew before the Fall that there would most certainly be a Fall and he took action to redeem some. He ordained the Fall in the sense that he chose to allow it, but not in the sense that he chose to coerce it. His predestinating grace is gracious precisely because he chooses to save people whom he knows in advance will be spiritually dead.....
Adam jumped into the pit. In Adam we all jumped into the pit. God did not throw us into the pit. Adam was clearly warned about the pit. God told him to stay away. The consequences Adam experienced from being in the pit were a direct punishment for jumping into it.
So it is with original sin. Original sin is both the consequence of Adam's sin and the punishment for Adam's sin. We are born sinners because in Adam all fell. Even the word fall is a bit of a euphemism. It is a rose-colored view of the matter. The word fall suggests an accident of sorts. Adam's sin was not an accident. He was not Humpty Dumpty. Adam didn't simply slip into sin; he jumped into it with both feet. We jumped headlong with him. God didn't push us. He didn't trick us. He gave us adequate and fair warning. The fault is ours and only ours.
It is also vital to see predestination in light of the Fall. All Christians agree that God's decree of predestination was made before the Fall. Some argue that God first predestinated some people to salvation and others to damnation and then decreed the Fall to make sure that some folks would perish. Sometimes this dreadful view is even attributed to Calvinism. Such an idea was repugnant to Calvin and is equally repugnant to all orthodox Calvinists.
The notion is sometimes called "hyper-Calvinism." But even that is an insult. This view has nothing to do with Calvinism. Rather than hyper-Calvinism, it is anti-Calvinism.
Calvinism, along with other views of predestination, teaches that God's decree was made both before the Fall, and in light of the Fall. Why is this important? Because the Calvinistic view of predestination always accents the gracious character of God's redemption. When God predestines people to salvation he is predestinating people to be saved whom he knows really need to be saved. They need to be saved because they are sinners in Adam, not because he forced them to be sinners. Calvinism sees Adam sinning by his own free will, not by divine coercion.
To be sure, God knew before the Fall that there would most certainly be a Fall and he took action to redeem some. He ordained the Fall in the sense that he chose to allow it, but not in the sense that he chose to coerce it. His predestinating grace is gracious precisely because he chooses to save people whom he knows in advance will be spiritually dead.....
Adam jumped into the pit. In Adam we all jumped into the pit. God did not throw us into the pit. Adam was clearly warned about the pit. God told him to stay away. The consequences Adam experienced from being in the pit were a direct punishment for jumping into it.
So it is with original sin. Original sin is both the consequence of Adam's sin and the punishment for Adam's sin. We are born sinners because in Adam all fell. Even the word fall is a bit of a euphemism. It is a rose-colored view of the matter. The word fall suggests an accident of sorts. Adam's sin was not an accident. He was not Humpty Dumpty. Adam didn't simply slip into sin; he jumped into it with both feet. We jumped headlong with him. God didn't push us. He didn't trick us. He gave us adequate and fair warning. The fault is ours and only ours.
Next, since it has been some years since I was indoctrinated by Mormonism, I wanted to be sure I had my recollection of their doctrine correct. I came across this explanation, which is as I remembered it:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/adam.shtml#intro
Latter-day Saints differ from much of modern "mainstream" Christianity in their views on the Fall of man....
In the LDS view, God's plan was not thwarted. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God to rescue fallen mankind was not an unfortunate backup plan, but was a key part of God's perfect plan from the beginning. ..... so God's purposes called for us to gain knowledge of good and evil, face opposition, make choices to follow Him, and receive of His grace. Thus, the Fall of Man was intended. As Brigham Young explained, "The Lord knew they would do this and he had designed that they should" (Journal of Discourses, 10:103).
Adam and the Fall: God's Plan Thwarted?
Latter-day Saints differ from much of modern "mainstream" Christianity in their views on the Fall of man....
In the LDS view, God's plan was not thwarted. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God to rescue fallen mankind was not an unfortunate backup plan, but was a key part of God's perfect plan from the beginning. ..... so God's purposes called for us to gain knowledge of good and evil, face opposition, make choices to follow Him, and receive of His grace. Thus, the Fall of Man was intended. As Brigham Young explained, "The Lord knew they would do this and he had designed that they should" (Journal of Discourses, 10:103).
Finally, I included a point of view that very much seemed to be in keeping with teaching I received in Charismatic churches and ministries that I had been involved with in the early days of my walk with Christ, so I thought I'd include this as well:
http://www.christianworldchurch.co.uk/page9.htm
WHY DID GOD ALLOW WICKEDNESS - OR DID HE?
Christianworld Church is a non-denominational ministry teaching Universal Salvation based in the United Kingdom
The answer is, that He must have allowed it, or we would not have wickedness with us today. Nothing happens that God does not allow. ...
"You mean to say that God is deliberately allowing all of the suffering that is going on in the world today?"
Obviously, or it would not be happening. And if you want the bottom line, He brought it about.
"What! I thought he was a God of love." He is very much a God of love. Bringing about wickedness, was God's love in action. It was part of the procedure that would take everyone up to eternal life with freewill. And if bringing about wickedness was a necessary part of taking everyone up to eternal life with freewill, then God had no choice in bringing about wickedness. He has always wanted the best for you. That is love (agape) which always looks after the best interests of others. God created evil because He loves everyone, and wants everyone to have life as He has it, with freewill. In fact, no-one could have absolute freewill without wickedness.
"Wait a minute. If that is right, that means that Adam and Eve never had a chance." Correct. You see, Satan (which means, resister) was already resisting God at this time. And God actually allowed Satan into the Garden of Eden to do what he did. Now, do you not think that would be rather stupid, unless it was part of a perfect plan?
UNIVERSAL SALVATION!
WHY DID GOD ALLOW WICKEDNESS - OR DID HE?
Christianworld Church is a non-denominational ministry teaching Universal Salvation based in the United Kingdom
The answer is, that He must have allowed it, or we would not have wickedness with us today. Nothing happens that God does not allow. ...
"You mean to say that God is deliberately allowing all of the suffering that is going on in the world today?"
Obviously, or it would not be happening. And if you want the bottom line, He brought it about.
"What! I thought he was a God of love." He is very much a God of love. Bringing about wickedness, was God's love in action. It was part of the procedure that would take everyone up to eternal life with freewill. And if bringing about wickedness was a necessary part of taking everyone up to eternal life with freewill, then God had no choice in bringing about wickedness. He has always wanted the best for you. That is love (agape) which always looks after the best interests of others. God created evil because He loves everyone, and wants everyone to have life as He has it, with freewill. In fact, no-one could have absolute freewill without wickedness.
"Wait a minute. If that is right, that means that Adam and Eve never had a chance." Correct. You see, Satan (which means, resister) was already resisting God at this time. And God actually allowed Satan into the Garden of Eden to do what he did. Now, do you not think that would be rather stupid, unless it was part of a perfect plan?
In fact, the Chumash, which is a Jewish Commentary on the Pentateuch, says of man's expulsion from Eden,
God grieved at the sin and its results, for Adam had now made it impossible for God to let him stay in the garden...Because man has this unique ability to know good and evil, and his desire for sensual gratification had become enhanced, there was a new danger. If Man had kept the capacity to live forever, he might well spend all his days pursuing gratification and cast away intellectual growth and good deeds. He would fail to attain the spiritual bliss that God intended for him...."
In conclusion, we can see that there are, and have been, various views taught throughout the Church over time. While I don't subscribe to the idea that all traditional views are necessarily the valid ones but should be subjected in prayer to close examination, in this case I am inclined to say that the Catholic and Calvinist views most mirror my own, and I am inclined to reject the concept of God purposely setting Adam and Eve in the Garden for the express reason that He willed them to fall.
I'm most inclined to follow the Calvinist view that while God did not maliciously cause the fall, He knew it would happen and allowed it. I have yet to come up with any good reasons as to why He would even allow it, though. What He hoped to accomplish in the Fall, if He did hope to accomplish anything, remains a mystery to me.